I have some questions.

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:55 pm

I read LitteWillow said about spaying can increase the lifespan. By roughly how long? Is it cruel to have the rat spayed if theres no particular reason (apart from no babies etc)? Is it harmful at all or is the operation dangerous?
I would really like to decrese the chances of tumors, particually cos Candy has alot of white on her and Mia is such a pale colour with a white belly. All my rats before had tumours... Spice had 3 operations one after the other and she was fine. She recovered quick. But what are the chances of survival in tumor operations? We dont have to worry about that for at least a year right?

And, we were thinking of maybe getting another two baby females to go in the cage with them (the cage is big enough for 4 rats), but not just yet as these are still getting used to things and we dont want to upset them by change again.
If they are about 6 weeks now, and we've had them a week how long do you think we should wait before getting new ones?
Im worried it'll interupt the taming and training for tricks process and they wont be as nice to us when they do become 100 % tame.
I dont want our rats to feel left out or sad...and I dont want them to change at all. I dont want them to become nasty or distant and stop doing funny things that they do or be nasty towards the other rats.
Will babies accept other babies, or should we wait till theyre older and then try them cos babies are seen as less of a threat to adults?
I dont want to get new ones and things dont work out, cos we wouldnt be able to keep them in a seperate cage all the time and I wont be able to get rid of them (no way could I do that)!
I know new rats of whatever age have to be kept in their own cage for two weeks before being introduced to their permenant cage with other rats.
Obviosuly we can afford to get a smaller cage/aquarium to house them in during that (and that can be their vet cage then), but we can't afford another big cage for them to stay in permenatly if things dont work out.

Do you know what happens to rats in pets at home or indeed any pet shop if they grow too big for the cage and noone buys them? They dont put them to sleep do they??

As for breeding, Ive heard that they can have up to 18 babies! Is this true? I know that average is 8-10. We really would like to breed them one day, but again theres the cage space and the cost. We'd have to have so any cages. (for all babies of different sexes and to seperate the male too before birth) I wouldnt be able to get rid of the babies either lol. It would break my heart.
I have had 24 gerbils before when I was little after my first two mated.
They all went to homes though...but to be honest they didnt really pull at my heart strings as much as rats do, though they were cute. We kept 2 out of the litter.

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:36 pm

Spaying females is a really invasive operation. It involves quite a painful process for the female. My last rat had a rapid growing malignant tumour, and they could do nothing about it. When I read that spaying decreases the chances of such tumours, I did consider it. But I then read that there are a lot of problems involved with a spay. I have never spayed a female, so haven't seen the outcome. Your best bet there is to talk to breeders and long term rat owners. If you could find out the history of tumours in her line (unlikely due to pet store bought) then that would give you an idea.. I think it is also very rare for an elderly female to not die of tumours. When all is said and done, they do have very short life spans anyway; and to put them through an operation which is quite traumatic may only prolong their lives by a short amount.

It is unlikely that the older rats would decrease in sociality. It is also better to introduce them at a younger age, as they are less hormonal, less territorial and less "set in their ways". It would be best though, to wait until you have at least completed your trust training etc, so they know where they stand with you, before you introduce new girlies to the mix.

Yes, does can have huge litters. Obviously the smaller the better, as the doe has more time per baby and is not exhausting herself trying to provide for 20 mouths! The younger they are, the smaller the litter and the smaller the actual kittens (So I've heard). It is best to wait until about 3 months as the doe is then fully grown. In the case of a store bought rat, it is probably best to wait a bit longer as any illnesses will be showing at an older age. It is also not recommended to breed from store bought rats as nothing of their lineage is known, or of any temperament traits. I bought my doe from P@H (pregnant) and she gave birth 2 weeks ago. She's a little protective still as she'd hardly got to know me before popping them out!! But they and she are of lovely temperament. It's a bit of a gamble if you don't know any of the genetics; and also recommended against unless you are breeding to improve qualities, and develop better pets from them. I am lucky in as much that I have enough room to keep all 9 babies. But if you don't want to get rid of them, then you have to bear in mind the extra cage space you'd need; extra bedding; food; time for free range.. (which I can see you're already doing..) I'm building a cage at the moment for my new girls, and throwing some old cages in rescue directions, as I can't keep all of the cages, but don't want to split them all up. It's a big decision with time and money to consider.

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:56 am

I've had 2 girls spayed, and my flatmate has had 2 spayed and another 2 going in for a spay soon. It is an invasive procedure and - like all surgeries - does carry risks. But since the advent and common use of inhaled anaesthetics, many of the risks for small animal surgery are reduced. Spays prevent babies, can resolve some female aggression issues, remove the risk of uterine infections and uterine tumours (and the subsequent emergency spay that usually follows), almost completely removes the risk of ovarian tumours (some ovarian cells can remain and in very rare cases may become cancerous), can reduce the risk of mammary tumours from 75% to a couple of % or less, may reduce the risk of pituitary tumours (certain ones are again sensitive to the female hormones). It's swings and roundabouts though - a single surgery when they're young, fit and healthy to prevent possibly multiple surgeries for tumours or an emergency spay when they're possibly very old, already weakened by unrelated medical conditions, infected, unwell and possibly losing blood - but that might never happen. You have to judge for yourself whether you would do it or not. Bee says "I think it is also very rare for an elderly female to not die of tumours." and this is the main benefit that has been seen in scientific surveys of spayed vs non-spayed females - that even in lines of rats that have 70-80% tumour occurrance rates (so up to 8 out of 10 female rats get at least one mammary tumour) spaying can reduce it so that maybe 1 or 2 in 100 rats get a tumour. For me - that's enough evidence. The reduced risks with other tumours and infections are just gravy.

For me, I see more evidence to suggest that it's beneficial to spay but at this time, routine spays are not the usual way to go. Neutering male rats doesn't carry the same benefits (it doesn't reduce their tumour rates, and testicular tumours are rare anyway) but it's more often used as a method to control litters in mixed colonies or to treat aggression issues. It is a smaller operation if done via the scrotum, but honestly I've not really seen signs of much more pain in girls than boys after speutering - and if they are given painkillers afterwards, then they're usually comfortable enough to be moving around, eating and drinking and even climbing around. The recovery has never been longer than a week, and usually by 5 days they're driving me nuts to go back into their big cage.

Getting more rats won't make them less friendly or less tame - it will, if anything, possibly make them more friendly as they are more confident and like living in groups.

There is a FAQ on breeding - in all honesty, there is almost never any reason to breed pet store rats, or any other rat where you don't know the history of the lines. It's something that should be left to experienced breeders who spot something so rare that they simply have to do it. In most cases, you will not being improving rat kind by doing so and that, ultimately, should be your target. Improved health, improved temperament - those are the things you should consider above all others. If you want to breed, you need to consider all of the relevant aspects (and the FAQ is only a starting point), contact local breeders, find a mentor and research, research, research! In my opinion though, 3 months is still very young to be breeding though, and they're far from fully grown.

I won't be breeding though - at least I don't see that I will any time soon - too much responsibility, too much to learn, too much expense to do it properly and I don't have the ability to put in the huge amount of time or effort to doing it right. I also don't have someone who would be mentoring me and without that, I'd not be going with it.

Introducing babies to adults is usually easier than introducing adults to adults - but introducing babies to babies is usually easiest of all. So if you want to get two more girls, then you can introduce them any time pretty much.

Rats that aren't sold - it depends on the store and depends on the country. In the UK, generally they get sent back to whoever bred them. What happens then, is anyone's guess. But the fact that they're selling the rats to pet stores rather than finding good homes themselves probably means that they're either unaware of best breeding practicies or they don't see the relevance of it.... and often they breed lots of rats (I know that my local P@H uses a single breeder - as they always have half a dozen 6-8 week old rats in store, I can only assume they're going through a significant number of litters. In other countries, such as the US, where live feeding is more accepeted, the rats are likely to be returned to the breeder and/or sold for food. Some of them are taken by staff, however, that have a soft spot for them.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:59 am

I've had 4 of my girls spayed, and the last one is going in to be spayed in a few weeks. I got the first four spayed for just health reasons (I had only females then). Callie is getting spayed for health reasons, and because she is a little hussy who is going to manage to become pregnant (if she isn't all ready).

I have read that spaying can increase there lifespan by up to 25%, but the spaying itself is not directly involved with them living longer. I read somewhere that female lab rats (Sprague-Dawley strain, I think), had about a 56% chance of getting mamary tumors, and a 16% chance of getting Pituary tumors. The spaying reduced that to 4% for each of them. Of course, female rats from a good breeder, who have been bred for good health will not have a 56% chance of getting tumors, but female rats from unknown backrounds do have a relatively large chance of getting tumors.
I don't think it is cruel to them, especially compared to the possiblility of them having large, unremovable tumors later in life. Part of it is probably because I have a really great vet, but none of the rats seemed particularly uncomforatable after there spayes. They were sore for a day or two, but that was it.

As with any sort of surgery, there is a risk, but there have been lots of advancements in anesthetics so spays and other surgeries are pretty safe (as long as you have a good vet.

As for getting new rats: It will not actually make them less social, but you would need to spend time with more rats (and it could be a significant amount of time if they were not socialized when you got them). Aside from cage space, you also need to consider funds, and the amount of time you have to be with your ratties.

Since you would be introducing young, female rats, I think that intros would go fine. There is always a chance that they wouldn't though, and you need to be prepared for that.

About the pet stores: I don't know about Pets At Home specifically, but I know that at Petsmart in the US (which doesn't sell feeder animals) they just keep the rats. Some get the rats when they are older, and others don't, but I have seen rats there for months without ever being euthanized or anything.

I am not nearly as familar with stores that sell feeder animals (because I hardley ever go into them). Petco and Petland are the big ones, but I don't really know anything about Petlands policies. As the rats get bigger, Petco moves them from "small", to "medium", to "large", and so on, and I assume that that if they were there for too long, they would get fed to one of the snakes there.

With the breeding, yes they can have 18 babies, and I have read about cases with 20-22. Often in those cases you need to foster out some of the babies, or the mom won't be able to take care of them all. You do need to have alot of cages in order to house all the rats, but you also need to have alot of money (lots of rats=lots of vet bills).

Also, if you were to get into breeding rats, you would need to read up on genetics, get a mentor (over the internet or locally), and get some rats from a good breeder (rats with unknown backrounds could carry all kinds of things, most of which would be illnesses and temperment problems that you wouldn't want to deal with), so you can make sure that you aren't just producing more rats.

B

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:24 pm

I hope they dont give them to snakes. Thats so cruel!!
We'll consider the spaying, but arn't too sure. Is it best to do it while theyre young?
As far as the introduction of new rats go...we really want to and probably will but not till these are completley used to us. I hope they wont be too old by then.
Can rats have milk? I found mine sitting i my cereal bowl the other day lapping it up. I got her off straight away cos I wasnt sure.
Candy is being very naughty at the moment. Running away and playing games. Silly thing.
Mia is just sitting there as usual. It may be her nature, but I can't help but feel she is missing out by not moving and doing anything.
Maybe, it's just that we have two such opposite rats and it notices more, as she is so quiet.
Mia is starting to talk to Steve now, like my Spice did, but she does hide away in dark places. I know this is cos she's scared. She doesnt like to jump off you're hand if it is an inch or two off the floor either which I found unusual. She seems scared to do anything. Are some rats just like that?
What can we do to help her be more confident and not to be scared?
Im afraid new rats will just make her worse, in the way that she'll be picked on.
At the moment though, we just wanna know how to help her be less scared.
I got scratches on my hand from Candys claws lol. They dont hurt though.

Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:52 pm

If anything, new rats might help her become more confident, not less... my first two, Charlie and Finn, were much like that. Charlie was outgoing, bossy and rough-and-tumble whereas Finn was much more into snuggling up and staying close. I found that when I got another two boys, Mal and Az, into the cage with them, Finn became more confident and outgoing, because he wasn't "bottom of the ladder" as it were, because there were other rats for Charlie to play with, and Finn had more time to do his own thing rather than Charlie always being onto him to do stuff with him. I also found that dimming the lights helped a LOT with that (they preferred 40W bulbs to 100W) and simply time. I can remember the first time Finn jumped from my hand a few inches to the washing pile.... I was thrilled because he'd never managed to do it before, it just took him a bit longer to get the confidence to do it - because their eyesight isn't great they often don't like to jump where they can't see. If I remember right, Mia is the red eyed one, right? If so, then that might be part of it as her eyesight is probably worse than Candy's.

Rats can have milk, but some of them might find it upsets their tummy. They're not all lactose intolerant. Generally it's better not to let them have too much though.

Spaying works best at preventing tumours the earlier you have it done, but it can still reduce the risk even up to a year old to a certain extent. My vet won't spay before 12 weeks, and some vets prefer even later for spaying, up to around 16 weeks. And I've successfully introduced adult males over a year old to each other, so it's unlikely that their age will be a factor if you're just talking a few weeks for these little ones to get used to you.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:47 pm

I haven't really seen that getting more rats helps make them more outgoing, but it might if Candy is being very dominant with MIa.

I have always read that rats can have dairy products, but some are lactose intolerant, and only yogurt is really healthy for them.

Introducing rats in a few months should go fine. I have introduced a 7 week girl to a bunch of 10 month old girls, 8 week old girls to girls who were 4 months, and several 3 month boys, so intros should go well.

Spaying is ideally done between 3 months and 4 months. Since your girls are young, that shouldn't be a problem.

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:38 pm

I live in Newport South Wales in the UK, and im trying to locate any good breeders (that care for their rats) as close by as possible. We were thinking of getting our next two from there.
I'm wondering wether it is best to let these become used to us completley first because of Mias situation. If it will help her come out of her shell more, then maybe its best to do it now rather than wait.

But its always nice to go to the pet shop to buy them. Mr. Green

Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:18 pm

Try the NFRS - they should be able to recommend someone to you.

http://www.nfrs.org/about.html#buying

As long as they seem relatively comfortable with you, then it's probably ok. Certainly, if you go to a responsible breeder, you might have to wait a few weeks or more for rats (it depends when they are breeding, and how many people they have on their waiting lists) so that may well be moot anyway.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~