Questions about baby rats

Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:21 am

Since Callie is probably pregnant, I have been reading everything I can find about ratty pregnacys, but there are still some things that I need to clarrify.

Is it okay for me to use Yesterdays News as a litter? I know that she needs to have lots of bedding (like toilet paper), but she also needs some sort of litter.

Her nursery cage will be a rubbermaid type bin. I have made a wire mesh top, and I am going to cut some "windows" (and put wire mesh over them), so there will be ventilation, but is that enough?

Assuming there is a normal birth, when should I start handling the rats? It seems most breeders sex them after a few hours, is that good? When should I start to really socialize them?

What are some common problems with the birth?

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Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:39 am

	Ellies_girl wrote:
	Is it okay for me to use Yesterdays News as a litter? I know that she needs to have lots of bedding (like toilet paper), but she also needs some sort of litter.

Yes. It's fine to use your normal bedding (assuming it is appropriate bedding, meaning not pine or cedar). When I have an expectant mother, I use the normal bedding (aspen) along with shredded paper (I usually toss this in for all my rats every now and then, but make sure my pregnant females have, they love using it as their base nesting material) and torn up paper towels (I don't like using toilet paper because some of them are scented or have lotions in them, and I don't like the idea of exposing new babies to that).

	Quote:
	Her nursery cage will be a rubbermaid type bin. I have made a wire mesh top, and I am going to cut some "windows" (and put wire mesh over them), so there will be ventilation, but is that enough?

That should be ok. I've heard of people who use a set up similar to this. I have a large hamster cage that's perfect for a hospital or nursery cage. It has two balconies, high enough for mother to take a break, but not so high that a baby could get hurt also not situated in a way that would make mother want to nest up there instead of on the floor level). It provide plenty of ventilation, is small enough that the babies can't get "lost", is easy for me to keep clean, and the bar spacing is small enough that there is NO way a baby could get hurt. Before this was available, I used a thirty gallon aquarium with a wire top. Personally I prefer the cage though, because the aquarium tended to get a bit too warm, stuffy, and damp, especially in summer.

	Quote:
	Assuming there is a normal birth, when should I start handling the rats? It seems most breeders sex them after a few hours, is that good? When should I start to really socialize them?

I usually leave the mom and babies alone for the first day or two, just checking to make sure all the babies are ok, making sure mom as food and water (in addition to LOTS of treats!), clean up the soiled bedding, and so on. After that first day or two, I start handling the babies. I check to make sure they are all healthy, start sexing them, watch for normal development, and so on. As their eyes start to open, handling becomes even more critical. Depending on how comfortable you are with the situation, and how comfortable your mother rat is with you, you can start handling the babies almost immediately.

	Quote:
	What are some common problems with the birth?

Well, that depends. There shouldn't be any common problems, but a mother can have problems. She might get a baby stuck (maybe it's turned the wrong way to make it through the birth canal) during delivery, if she is in labor for a long time before giving birth she might "run out" of the proper hormones (they aren't produced constantly, they are only produced in a finite quantity) for birth and then her labor may stop preventing the babies from being born, she might not produce the right hormones in the first place, she might rupture an artery during the birth (this can happen if she's straining, either due to a difficult birth or an extra large baby) and bleed out, and so on. She might have a perfectly fine delivery, but then be unable to care for her babies afterwards. She might have a fine delivery and be able to care for the babies, but for some reason the babies are all or mostly stillborn. She can also abort before having the babies, but rather than reabsorbing them, they might stay inside of her and start to decompose, poisoning the mother. A baby may die before birth and then get stuck during birth, and so on. Most of these problems are not common, but they are always a risk.

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Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:51 am

Others can answer better about the litter - I know that often it appears in photos that initially, they have mainly softer bedding or paper that can be easily changed, as well as makes it easier to monitor any blood loss (some is normal with birth, of course). They can do fine with that without litter, though it needs more frequent changing.

Re: the bin - as long as there is plenty of mesh in the lid, that should be enough to provide ventilation but it will, of course, depend on the size of the bin.

Re: handling - with a normal birth and a comfortable mother, you can start handling within hours, or you can leave it a day or so to give momma time to get used to the new arrivals (apart from a general check over). At first, I believe it's best to handle them for short periods of time (just a few minutes) to make sure they don't get cold, and to see how momma handles you handling the babies. Then you can build up from then as they get bigger and furrier and can control their temperature better - and hence be away from momma longer. But the breeders will be able to advise better on a schedule of handling.

Re: problems - hopefully there won't be any! I will list some I can think of, but please try not to panic - many many litters are born with no problems at all, and don't need any intervention.

I'd guess that stillborn babies (or those that die very soon after birth) are probably the most common issue. It's possible that momma may have troubles delivering the babies (either due to the uterus not contracting hard enough or because a baby can be in an awkward position). She could lose more blood than expected during or after the birth. She might not know how to care for the babies, or show no interest in them, or she might be unable to feed them.

As I said though - hopefully none of these things will happen - the best thing you can do is make sure momma has plenty of good food to build her strength up, make sure you have the necessary bits on hand if she needs help with the babies afterwards, and have a good vet on call in case she needs intervention (such as an emergency caesarean or spay).

I remember seeing your other thread, but I can't remember if anyone posted these links.

Plan B or What to Do When $#!@ Goes Pearshaped
The Miracle of Birth or Quick! Boil Water!!!
Ratz.co.uk Breeding link

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:54 am

I think if the delivery goes smoothly, and Callie is okay with me handling the babies, I sex them, and look them over the 1st day (assuming they are not born in the evening). Babies generally start getting there coat in at about a week right?

I have a good, emergency vet about 15 minutes away from me. They are more expensive then my other vet for surgery, but the other one is only open until 5:30, and is to far away.

I have been giving Callie high protein and fat food, with lots of extra treats. She gets cat food mixed in with her Suebee's instead of dog food, and has some sort of extra treat (along with her usual fresh food) every day (babyfood, part of an omlet, part of a hard boiled egg, etc.)

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:55 am

I forget - how old is Callie?

Usually they don't need too much during pregnancy (a fat rat would find labour harder and possibly more difficult) but if she's young herself, then she's definitely going to benefit from extra protein. Mainly make sure she's getting a good balanced diet - plenty of good quality food, plenty of veg to ensure that she's getting all her vitamins. http://www.shunamiterats.co.uk/nutribreed.html has more advice from one breeder in the UK (her rat diet is very popular among UK rat owners) - to ensure that she has plenty to eat, but not too much fat so as not to overfeed her. If she's younger already though, she would benefit from extra protein and calories to ensure that neither she nor the kittens goes without. Make sure she always has plenty of standard mix available at all times.

And aye - fur comes in during the first week, and the baby coat is pretty much complete by the time they have their eyes open.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:58 am

Callie is only 9-10 weeks old, and small which is why I am giving her the extra's.

All the rats always gave Suebee's with dog (in her case cat) food, available to them.

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Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:59 am

I think there's lots of good info here...just want to say that if it's okay with you, I'll *see* about adopting one of the babies, if possible, especially since Andre or Firmin may be the dad.

It'll all depends on how much money I get on my tax return. I'm running out of cage space.

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--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:05 am

If you can adopt one of the babies, it would be great. I don't want to make a post in the adoption forums just in case, but it would be great to have a few homes lined up.

I really hope Andre or Firmin is the dad. I *think* one of them would be, since they try to mate with even the spayed girls, but I have no way of knowing...

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:02 am

When the babies get their coats, then couldn't you tell? Since agouti is dominant, and PEW is recessive, if you get any Agouti babies, then you know Shadow is the dad. Right? Or am I wrong.

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Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:20 am

Not really, no.

Agouti is dominant to black (so aa is black but Aa and AA are agouti) but it doesn't override other colour dilutes though it does affect the final colour produced. A black rat with two recessive copies of RED - aarr - would be beige. An agouti rat with two recessive copies of RED - A/-rr - would be fawn.

However it IS true that agouti would mean that Andre and Firmin are not the fathers but for a different reason. I believe (if I remember the genetics of the PoTO litter correctly), that there were no agoutis - all of the rats were black based, so if there are any agouti, then it didn't come from Andre and Firmin.... I'd have to go and recheck the genetics of that litter to know for sure (because PEWs can be Agouti based as well as black based) but I'm pretty certain they are all black based. If that's the case, then yes - any agouti babies would mean that the father wasn't Andre or Firmin.

Some PEWs are caused by multiple colour dilutions that make the rat so pale that it becomes white with pink eyes. Other PEWs are true albinos (i.e. aacc or A/-cc). Either way, it doesn't really matter - PEWs can be black or agouti based.

In order for the PEWness to be propagaged, then momma will need to either have a copy of the albino gene (Cc) or would need to carry the matching colour dilutes that Andre and Firmin carry (RED, mink and blue are most likely in the case of Andre and Firmin). Either way though, it's likely that at least some of the babies won't be PEWs and even if they are, it doesn't automatically mean that Andre or Firmin are the dad - it's possible that both mom and Shadow carry the recessive albino gene, for example, and could produce some PEW (in this case, true albino) babies between them.

Let me double check the PoTO litter and I'll tell you for sure.

Edit: OK, [url=]here [/url]is the post I was looking for. I did a lot of work on the genetics of the PoTO litter (for my own enjoyment because I'm a bit of a genetics geek, and because the ancestry of Grim and Cosette - the parents of Andre and Firmin - is so incredibly complex that it's hard to know exactly what is where) and as I thought - no agouti in the litter, so if there are any agouti based babies, then we know for sure that daddy isn't Andre or Firmin. But... if they're all black, we can't know for sure which of them - Andre, Firmin or Shadow - is the dad. Even if Shadow is agouti, he can carry black.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:19 pm

If Shadow is the dad, then wouldn't there be at least one agouti? Callie is some sort of mink dilute or something, and is not agouti based, so even if Shadow did carry black, the litter would be 50% agouti based.

Edit: My mom is going to get some Kale type greens for Callie. I am amazed at how understanding she is being. I haven't told her about Firmin/Andre possibly being the dad, but I made sure she new that there was a relatively large chance that Callie was pregnant.

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:51 am

No - What you have to remember is that all those stats when you work out a litter possibility don't mean that a litter will definintely produce anything (unless you have a 100% chance of something - such as when you cross dumbo with dumbo, you are guaranteed 100% dumbo babies as both parents would have two recessive dumbo genes). It defines what percentage chance each baby in a litter has of inheriting a certain gene, but it doesn't guarantee that in reality it actually happens. The colour for any given baby is independent of the colour of all the other babies.

http://www.probabilitytheory.info/topics/independant_or_mutually_exclusive.htm

Take as an example gender - statistics say that each baby stands a 50% chance of being male, 50% of being female. It's easy (though incorrect) to believe that in that case, half of the litter will be male and half will be female - however, the gender of baby 1 doesn't influence the gender of baby 2, 3, 4 etc. So while it's unlikely to happen, it would be perfectly possible to have a litter of 20 babies, all of whom are female - and my flatmate's girls (Whendi and JJ) came from a litter of 18 (17 girls, 1 boy). Of course the chance of that happening is very small (0.00038% or less than 1 in 250,000) but it does happen.

If you cross black based with agouti based, you have one of the following outcomes (this ignores any other colour genes, and simply concentrates on the A locus for now):

aa (black) X AA (agouti not carrying black) = 100% chance of Aa (agouti carrying black)
aa (black) X Aa (agouti carrying black) = 50% chance of Aa (agouti carrying black), 50% chance of aa (black)

So - if Shadow is homozygous agouti (AA) then all babies would be agouti based - there's no other options. But, if Shadow is heterozygous agouti (Aa) then each baby stands a 50% chance of being agouti and 50% chance of being black.... and while it's unlikely to see an all black litter from crossing black and agouti, it's certainly not impossible.

If momma is black based and dad is agouti carrying black:
For a single baby, there is a 50% (1 in 2) chance of it being black.
For a litter of 2 babies, there is a 25% (1 in 4) chance of both being black.
For a litter of 5 babies, there is a 3.125% (1 in 32) chance of all being black.
For a litter of 10 babies, there's a 0.097% (1 in 1024) chance of all being black.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:45 am

Okay, I understand now. So having agouti babies means Shadow's the dad, but not having agouti babies doesn't mean that he isn't.

Callie has dark ruby eyes, and Firmin and Andre have red eyes, so if they were bred together I would get all red/ruby eyes. Since there are 3 or 4 eye color dilutes, there would be more possiblities if Shadow were the dad...

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:54 am

Aye - you got it - agouti babies must mean Shadow is dad, but a lack of agouti babies isn't certain either way.

If Callie has ruby eyes, are you sure she's mink? I was under the impression that mink had black eyes.

You can't tell for certain what will be the result eye wise with the combination of Firmin/Andre and Callie - ruby eyes and pink eyes can be caused by a number of gene combinations and just because they all have pink or ruby eyes, doesn't mean that they will necessarily produce babies with ruby or pink eyes.

Andre and Firmin are PEWs - it is unknown for sure the cause of their PEW status - it could be due to the albino gene (aacc) or it could be down to a combination of dilutes (such as aaggmmrr).

If Callie is mink and Andre/Firmin both are multidilute PEWs with mink in the mix, then you will have all mink babies (assuming Callie doesn't carry any other dilutes) - but again, I believe minks have black eyes, not red. Shrug

If Callie is mink and Andre/Fimin are albino PEWs then it could be more complex - if she carries albino or they also carry mink, then you could end up with some minks and some PEWs, along with some blacks. However, if they don't carry mink and she doesn't carry albino, then no mink or PEW babies.

If Callie is actually beige (aarr) and the boys are multidilute with RED in the mix, then yes - all babies will be red eyed beige babies. If the boys are albino but carry RED, there may be some beige babies.

If Callie is beige and carries albino, and the boys are albino PEWs then there might be some PEWs in the litter. If neither she carries albino and the boys don't carry RED though, then there will be blacks (assuming there are no other colours that they are both carrying.

If Shadow carries RED and Callie is beige, then you could end up with beiges, fawns, blacks and agoutis.... but even if you end up with PEWs, beiges and blacks, you could still have Shadow as dad (if he carries albino and RED while Callie carries albino, for example).

Sadly, without knowing their histories at all, and with some question over the source of Andre and Firmin's PEW status (i.e. whether they are albino or multidilute) it's hard to know what to expect. I guess you'll have to wait and see what pops up (if anything). wink

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:30 am

Well, first I thought she wasn't pregnant (see this thread: ), but now I think she is Sad

I have figured out that Callie is odd-eyed. Her left is dark ruby, and her right is black. I am not sure what color she is though. All of the beiges I have seen have a distinct goldish coloring, which is more noticable than Callies coloring. Cal looks a little like this rat http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=4946010 but she has none of the gold tinge which that rat has, and her color is a little lighter and softer.

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:25 am

If she's high white, then that could account for her ruby eye while the other is dark... so I think (though I wouldn't swear to it) that it would be possible for her to be mink and odd eyed.... perhaps someone else can clarify that.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:30 am

According to the NFRS, this is what a mink rat looks like: http://www.nfrs.org/images/self_mink.jpg . Cal is much lighter than that, and more tan. Chocolate and even cocoa are to dark though Shrug

. There is a blury pic of her in the thread called "Oh Crap, not again".

_________________
Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat