Rescue of sorts..Now for a *happy* update.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:35 am

My Geology class is, of course, located in the science building of my school. The first floor of the science building is mostly dedicted to psychology related classes. A few weeks ago I heard some students discussing an expirement where they are all assigned a rat, they take it home, and basically they inject it with morphine every day until it becomes so addicted it stops eating, and then they kill it. You don't dissect it or anything, the expiriment just ends and they kill the rats once they stop eating their food. This supposedly illustrates the fact that drugs are bad, or something. I don't know.

Anyway, I walked by the psychology lab every day and would just peek in, and then one day, saw that a huge container of rats had been brought in. There were probably 100+ rats in a big metal washtub sort of thing with a metal grate over it. They couldn't turn around they were so packed in, and a few looked really distressed. They had a water bottle, but it was empty. Didn't see any food.

Of course I wasn't going to take any, they'd just buy more, and plus it would likely get me expelled if I got caught. I decided I'd just have to ignore the situation: If I went to someone to complain, I'd have to admit I was in a lab that's closed even to the psychology students, and I could have gotten in huge trouble. They wouldn't have cared anyway.

But I couldn't resist going in every few days to look at them. They were mixed sex, and a few of the females were obviously pregnant when they had been brought in, and these had had their babies. More were getting bellies, and many were fighting and had bad scars. Some of the babies were dead from either being trampled, killed by a male, or from not being able to get enough to eat. I occasionally saw remnants of food in the cage, so they were being fed somehting, just not enough of it.

I casually asked one of the psychology majors I'm aquianted with about the expiriment and asked if they knew what happened to the ones who were pregnant, and what happened to their babies. She said she was fairly sure the professor had mentioned that they drowned the babies in alcohol and/or decapitated them and just "threw them away." She swore up and down that those were both very humane forms of euthanasia. Rolling Eyes

Well, I tried to talk myself out of it, and succeeded for a while, but I just couldn't stop going to see them when I went by. There is rarely anyone on that floor in the mornings, which is when I'm usually in the building, so it was easy to sneak in to see them. The expiriment is apparently supposed to begin next week, and that's when the rats will be handed out to the students, and supposedly this is when the babies would be killed if there were any.

Well, since the babies were unwanted and would just be killed and thrown out like garbage, I decided to take what ones were alive...like I said, there were always dead ones lying around and few left live. I was scared to death to do it, and debated it for days, but I just felt like I was completely betraying them by not saving the ones I could. If I got caught, I could probably be expelled, for stealing and "tampering with the animal models."

So, I went in today and found two live babies, nursing on a mom who I thought at first was dead. She was still alive, but weak and thin and trying as hard as she could to feed her babies and protect them from the males. I felt so awful about taking them from her, but they would have been killed if they hadn't died on their own first.

One is a light eyed boy, the other a dark girl. They're about the size of newborns, but I think they're actually about 3-5 days old because of the developmental stage they're at. They're underweight, but had very small milkbands so they at least had something in their systems. I'm trying to hand raise them now, and I don't know that it's going to work. One of them also has a bite on their leg, not a serious one, but it's there.

Yes, I understand this is stealing, and that I probably shouldn't have done it, but I felt it was the right thing to do in this situation. I know everyone won't agree with my decision to take them, but well...it's already been done.

It just angers me that I can't say anything or do anything about it. This same expiriment has been going on since the 70's, I know this because my stepfather went to the same school and remembers having to do the same expiriment. It's pointless, it teaches nothing, and probably hundreds of thousands of rats have died for it at my school alone. I can't complain because that would require me to admit I'd been in the lab, and stole animals from it. It won't matter that these were babies who would be killed and thrown out, all they'll see is that I went in an off limits area, stole school "property," tampered with the expirimental animals, and then had the audacity to bring up complaints about it.

I just know I won't be setting foot in there again. I just hope I'm able to save these babies.

I'll try to take pictures later. Now I'm just trying to get something in their bellies. Sad

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Last edited by Ratsicles on Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:58 am

As a psych student I am ashamed that my program would do this. Fortunatly in my school indergrads do not work with live animals (I don't know if this was an undergrad experiement, but just saying). Any curel inhumain treatment of any animals is WRONG. You didn't steal those babies you rescued them, and thank goodness for that. I'd like to slap some sense into whoever runs the program there.
Best of luck with the babies.

_________________
Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:00 am

I wish I had not read this. My heart is breaking for these little lives.

_________________
Rats are man's best friend. They gave up long life to be able to give more love.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:06 am

I'm glad I never had to do that in school..
that's barbaric. Those poor little ones.Cramped in one place not enough food or water and from the sounds many of them are dead before the'experiment' began so they have to buy more..
No living thing should have to be put through that.

Good job on the rescue.

_________________
Cats:5 Raistlin,Deanna,Itty-Bitty,Cat,Maxine
Rats:5 Inyuasha,Sesshomaru,Grisom,Sidle,Kikyo
New rats:2 Marowak and Mewtwo
R.I.P
Cat:Mousie
Rat:Vertalus,Mew,Porygon,Cubone

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:16 am

is it at all possible to get one of those poor mommies some how? Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:38 am

I would have stomped in there and stole them all. I would have contacted the Animal rights personel for your area of the country and I would have made underground flyers of what is going on and would pass them ot like mad......My personal opinion is what keeps me sane, and I may be labeled as a thief or hatever they would want to call me..... This is just outrageous...... Horrid....

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:40 am

I'm afraid to take one of the mothers...I don't know if they've been identified somehow, or numbered, and I would think they'd be more likely to notice one of the adults missing than the "useless" babies. That and most of the mothers were in pretty bad shape, and I'll be surprised if any of them lived if I *did* take them. Few were producing any milk at all and it was obvious that some of the dead babies had starved to death. Taking these babies was bad enough, I don't want to push my luck by trying to get one of the moms.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:42 am

Thats horrible!

I can't understand how someone could think that decapitation was a humane form of euthanasia Sad

Those poor babies! I hope they are okay Crossed Fingers

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:48 am

I would just go ahead and take one...I doubt they have them marked and maybe they will think the other rats ate her over night or something..Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:09 am

I think Ratsicles has done more then most by rescuing those 2 babes and deserves a hige pat on the back for that.
At this point in time I wouldn't ask her to put herself at risk and try to take more. Try to complain to someone who might listen at the uni at the horrible treatment... but it's not fair to ask her to risk being kicked out of school for stealing. I know uni's can take that kind of thing badly and can do damage.
Perhaps even contact the animal prtoection service in your area if no one at the school will listen. It's not fair, it's mean and cruel, it's sickening, but try and go through 'offical channels'.

_________________
Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:24 am

Whoa simmer down.... I do give Britt a HUGE pat on the back.. and I didnt ask her to do anything I just stated what I would do, and if it was possible to get a momma somehow, even if it is offering to buy one off of them I didnt say take her. I know the risk she already took. And Britt I hope they make it sending good vibes your way!! Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:33 am

So do you have to feed them with a syringe? Is it working???

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~~Dawn~~

Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:37 am

"Whoa simmer down now" (LOL makes me think of that skit on Saterday Night Live)
Didn't mean to come off too strong. I just think Britt did an awesome thing, went above and behond, and I back her 100%. I am a (female) knight on a white horse coming to the defence of a damsel in distress (who isn't appearently in distess).

_________________
Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:44 am

thats where I got it from.. and it seemed pretty approprite.. LOL....I do back Britt 100percent as well, heck she is one of the best mouse breeders of orange meeces I know Mr. Green

I would have done the same thing but I also would have been the one getting kicked out... If I was in her situation. So we need to get these babies to eat..maybe find a foster mom? Britt you did an amazing thing with Cerul so I BELIEVE in you and think you have the right natural skills...Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:45 am

My girlfriend is a psychology major, and this is a discussion we've had many times. I get the sense that I'm unusual among pet owners in that I actually support testing on animals--so long as that testing is actually beneficial to the human race. Sunscreen and makeup companies that pour their crap on animals to see if it causes a reaction then kill the animals afterwards need to start paying people for those tests.

Since she's going to get her doctorate in psychology, and actually do some post-doc work, it's inevitable that she will have to test on and/or kill rats, mice, etc. at some point. My owning rats that she loves and enjoys playing with as much as I do doesn't make that eventuality any easier for her, especially because she actively participates in taking care of my girls, then sees how much care is taken of rats in a lab setting. To ASU's credit, the school only uses live animals in studies when it has to, and even then, if it's not necessary to kill the animal to do a brain study or something of the sort, they don't. Most lab rats at ASU are actually employed in behavioral studies, and they live a full life and die of natural causes at 18-24 months (I know, it's a shorter lifespan, but at least they're not killing them).

Another discussion we've had is how we're going to handle her eventually having to test on rats. I've actually decided (without telling her) that once Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler have passed away, I won't be adding any new rats until she's done with school and has her degrees. I don't want to put the strain on her of seeing a rat that looks like one of mine, then being told she has to kill it. I love my girls, and I love owning rats, but I love her more, and I'm not going to do something that I know would make her uncomfortable.

We've also talked about what happens when and if she has to kill a rat. Basically, I don't want to hear about it. If she's particularly saddened by having to part with one, I'm here for her, and always will be, but I don't want the gory details. Labs kill rats in one of three ways, generally. Blood and gore, suffocation, or blunt force trauma. There are many variations of the above used (as I'm finding out in the intro to psych course I have to take for my political science degree), and...well...when putting a group of rats in an airtight plastic container with cottonballs soaked in formaldehyde is as humane as it gets...

It's hard knowing that someday she will have to kill a rat, but if that rat dying advances Alzheimer's research or brings us one step closer to a cure for cancer, then it's something I would be at peace with.

Have I mentioned how tricky a subject animal research is for me?

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:54 am

Certain studies of animals fine ok I can live with that...when needed but still they should be humanely euthenised, they did us a great service. As far as the other tests...let the prisoners sitting on death row sign up. Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:01 am

	MerlinsMagic wrote:
	Certain studies of animals fine ok I can live with that...when needed but still they should be humanely euthenised, they did us a great service. As far as the other tests...let the prisoners sitting on death row sign up. Shaz

We have a wonderful thing called the 8th Amendment that prevents that, though for most people on death row, it would be their most noble service ever to mankind.

A secondary problem is that people on death row, by and large, have brains that don't function like those of a normal member of society. Any test on them would be flawed considering the sample. That's another reason that animals are used--by using a random sampling of animals, you have a much lower chance for getting a flawed cross-section than you do by taking 20 guys from death row and cutting their heads open.

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:16 am

I really don't want this to turn into an animal testing debate...my view is, if there is solid, clear evidence that you can show me that PROVES it is absolutely necessary to use animals for a test that is *worthwhile,* meaning, a cure for AIDS or cancer or some other horrible disease, THEN I am okay with it. Handing rats to first year psychology students to get them addicted to drugs and then killing those rats is pointless. Crowding them and allowing them to breed out of control, depriving them of food, water, comfort, and a safe place to raise their young, and then killing the babies that result is NOT okay. It does not further science or benefit humans in any way. 110% useless and I am NOT okay with it. I appreciate the concern from all sides, and all of the support everyone is showing me means more than any of you know, but I just really don't want to turn this into a debate on animal testing.

Getting them to eat is difficult, but it's getting done. I've been using a birthday candle to pry their mouths open and just hold it there until they swallow what formula drips into their mouths. The little girl is having problems with aspirating some of the formula into her lungs, which is a concern because fluid in the lungs = potential for pneumonia. She's also fussier than her brother and eats less. They are, however, both mainting small milk bands, and while they're still thin they're pinker and a littler rounder than they were when I first brought them home. I've been feeding them about every 30 minutes because they take in so little at each feeding.
If they make it through the night, their chance of survival will really increase.

I just took some pics of them, just have to resize them. I'll be posting them in a little bit.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:22 am

I mean the other testing like the makeup, the expiremental drugs, I think they shouldnt be forced to do it.. I know the amendments thats why we cant have chain gangs anymore... But they should have a choice to sign up for it, what do they have to loose...

My brother works in a lab for expiremental drug testing.. he is a data enterer..analysis..so I do know what goes on. Rattamuffins rescue takes in lab rats their motto is saved more lives then 9/11 featureing a white rescued lab rat...which is very true...and I think instead of destroying them after the expirement is done they should offer them for adoption, like many departments are doing..unless the animal has to die before the expiremant is complete. Like in alzhiemer research...or in researching CWD or MCD..I do realise what they are doing is for man kind, but alot of those rats dont have to be put to death afterwards. In this case, what kind of results are they going to get? What conclusion....what about after the rat stops eating stop the morphine and see how long the effects take to wear off before the rat is "normal" again instead of killing it. And if you must kill it then do it humanely...blunt force is not humane. Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:26 am

Forgot to add....we could go round and round about animal testing is it right or wrong and what are the alternatives....but that would be taking Britts post over which we already started to do... and I am guilty as well. This is about these babies that she saved and hopefully will live because of her. Can we stick to topic now please...Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:30 am

Like I said, it's not an easy topic for me, and it's a debate I find myself having internally every day. I'd have to see the exact abstract for the morphine experiment before condemning it, but it certainly doesn't sound like it does any good.

Animal testing is bound to be a hot topic on any message board, and for that reason, I'll step away from this thread. I don't sense any disagreement between Ratsicles, Shaz, and myself, as neither of you are saying anything I don't personally believe, but I feel that we're bound to get someone in this thread who toes the PETA party line and would rather "liberate" thousands of animals into a certain death in the wild than let them be tested upon, no matter what the benefits to humanity are.

Ratsicles, what you're doing is a noble thing, and I applaud you for it. Taking a couple of babies who were facing certain death anyway and saving their lives is something only a truly special person would doing, and I sincerely doubt that the lab techs will notice or care. I salute you, and with that, I leave this thread.

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:12 am

Y ou dont have to leave....just keep support where it is needed right now, the two lil ones in Britts care. I am happy to hear that they are doing fair. I would not have been subtile....and I congrats you on your new babies. As I said before you did wonderful things with Cerul, so I know its in you to do the best for these lil ones. I hope its in them to follow and to fight for their lives. Shaz

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Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:19 am

bcorby, I hope you won't decide to leave this thread. I knew that this was a hot topic and so wanted to keep it away from animal testing and on the subject of the babies. I appologise if I made you feel your comments were unwanted, as those were not my intentions.

I just realized that the girl is a little younger than the boy. I assumed they were from the same litter because they were trying to nurse on the same rat and they're about the same size, but the boy is actually more developed than the girl. I'm guessing he's about 6 days, she's probably closer to 3-4.

Both have rexy whisker, she looks like she'll probably be a black or agouti berk and he looks like he'll probably be a PEW.

The boy seems to be doing a little better than the girl, and I hold out more hope for him. The girl just won't take much, and what she does get she manages to suck most of that into her lungs. Sad

Anyway, pictures. I know they look terrible, but they actually look better than they did when they first got here.

The boy:

Girl:

And together:

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:39 am

Brittany, you did a brave thing, not only because you are giving those little ones a chance, but because you had the courage to even face that situation. All arguments about animal testing aside, it does NOT sound as if the school was following laws designed to provide basic care for laboratory animals. I could be wrong, but I think even rats are covered in terms of having adequate food and water, if nothing else. It might be worth looking into the federal and/or state laws covering lab animal care and some of us could write letters if you felt comfortable with that. I do think it is worth writing the university to protest what is most assuredly a very senseless use of live animals. It sounds positively stone age to me. The students do NOT need a live animal model for this experiment. Good luck with the munchkins. They sure are lucky. It's very sad to hear about the others knowing that each has the intelligence and personality of all our pet rats. They deserve better. If anyone needs to know how a more enlightened country deals with animal testing, they can look to the European Union. America is very far behind in terms of laws to protect laboratory animals.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:46 pm

i have everything crossed for those little babies, it would be lovely for something positive to come out of such a horrible story. will be holding my breath for updates, good luck. kate x

Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:45 pm

I also wish I hadnt read this. I know stuff like this goes on ...I just wonder if the school would allow it if it were a pile of puppies? I dont see a difference.
I'm glad no one is home to see me sitting her blubbering like an idiot.
I'm also glad it wasnt me in your place Brit....I would have nightmares. ...youre an angel.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:57 pm

How heart breaking Sad

I am so pleased there are good people in this world to counteract the cruelty.

I will be thinking of those babies all day and all night. Bless them

_________________
my rats: Bunny and Rex
missing: Ralph, Trevor, Mouse and Tariq
my cats: Meg, Minky and Molly

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:25 am

Those poor little darlings Sad

. How are they doing today? Did the little girl make it through the night?

Ratsicles, you did an amazing thing by brinign those two babies home. I would have been right in there beside you grabbing pinkies.

_________________

mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:48 am

They're both still alive, I rigged up a syringe with a bit of tubing on the end that fits in their mouths. The boy is now eating well, but the little girl just can't get anything down. Sad

She must be getting something or she wouldn't still be alive, but most of it she chokes on or sucks into her lungs.

I'm pretty sure that the boy is going to make it, and also pretty sure that the girl isn't. Sad

Who knows, she may surprise me, but at the rate things are going, it looks like we may lose her soon. I'm so frustrated, because she's so energetic and seems to want to live, but she just can't swallow anything, even when I get the tube nearly all the way down her throat, she spits everything back up.

But the little boy is probably going to make it, so at least one life will be saved from all this. At least the little girl won't have to die cold and being stomped on or bitten by some big male rat, or worse, dunked in alcohol.

I'm still trying to get her to eat, and I'm not giving up, but I think it's pretty much an exercise in futility. If I can't get her to eat, I can at least make her final moments as comfortable and possible.

Will try to take more pictures in a little bit.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:56 am

You could say you got lost when you saw the rats, and still make a complaint. Or anonymously tip the ASPCA or any valid government agency to ensure that the rats are at least treated somewhat humanely.

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:58 am

I still hold hope for them both, you are doing everything you can and you are doing great! Common lil girl you are still here and have the will to fight and be stubborn so hang on and pull through. lil boy rock on you are showing us all what surviving is about, blind, deaf, nekkid, and not able to move and you are still doing things on your own. BE STRONG LIL ONES! Shaz

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Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:54 am

I can't believe it- the little boy is gone. I went in just after my last post to feed them and he was dead. I don't know why, he had been doing so well, he was active, he ate like a pig, he was defecating normally- he died with a full milk belly.

I feel like such a failure...I can't believe I let him down like this. I took him into my care, and I couldn't even save him. He had such a horrible, short, brutal life...I'm just at a loss. Maybe I was wrong for taking them. I was wrong for thinking I could possibly save babies so young.

And now all I can do is watch his sister fade away. I don't know how she has so much energy, because she's rail thin and every drop that goes into her mouth comes out through her nose. I was expecting to lose her....but losing the little boy caught me completely off guard.

Rest in peace, little guy...I'm so sorry I failed you.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:06 am

Oh my gosh Brittney, I'm so sorry. Sad

I just found this thread, and when I got to this post, I felt so shocked...

You are such a great, caring person, you did everything you could, and you have SUCH a big heart, it was not your fault at all and you DID NOT let the little boy down. I'm sure he knew that you wanted to save him, and that you were doing everything possible. At least he died in a loving home, with a fully belly. At least he was loved at least once in his life.

Rest well little boy, you won't be forgotten. Hug

And *fingerscrossed* for the little girl, I will be thinking about her, and hoping that she will get better and grow into a strong little rat. Come on little girl you can do it!!!!

Good Vibes

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EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:38 am

Oh no Britt!! I am in shock as well. But dont blame yourself, they would have had a last few miserable days if you didnt take them. Your lil boy got to know love, which is something no one would have given him if he was left behind. Shaz

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Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:44 am

Thanks guys. I know I shouldn't beat myself up over it...but, well, it's hard not to.

I just got the little girl to eat for the first time. This is the first actual meal she's managed to get in more than 24 hours...other than a few drops she sucked down that managed to make it into her tum instead of her lungs. She finally seemed to "get it" when I put the syringe in her mouth, so...maybe she's turning around. I let her eat until she developed a small milk band and then stopped. I didn't want to overfeed her, especially since she went so long without a meal.
I don't want to get my hopes up though. The little boy didn't have half the problems she seems to have, and he still died...so I dunno.

At least she ate though, without getting it all in her nose. She'll appreciate all the good vibes anyone can spare, I'm sure.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:47 am

oh no, man, I just hate to hear about that. I will tell you that one of the hardest things I have ever had to do as a breeder and rat owner is try to hand nurse a very young litter of pinkies. I still try when the need arises and have learned some techniques but I usually do not suceed in saving them for the most part. I cry everytime and I feel like I am a failure- I KNOW what you are feeling right now-It is never easy. You have to remeber that you have lots of people pulling for these guys and you were there in their life when they needed it, no matter how short it may be or if we can save them or not. You have people who know you are trying to do everything you can. I commend you for your efforts in trying to save these babies as this is definately a challening and emotional involvement and one that you boldly choose to take on. Despite all our best intentions or efforts they just don't make it. I will hold you and the babies in my thoughts and prayers tonight.
Amy

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Phoenix Gate Rats
www.pxrats.com

Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:05 am

It's VERY hard to take the place of a mum when you are talking such tiny little things. Don't feel badly you lost the boy. You did everything you could. I can just see the rat angels smiling down on you for trying. I searched several sites last night after my post about humane care and of course rats seem to be exempt from every law covering lab animal welfare. Most universities choose to adhere to laboratory animal welfare codes on a voluntary basis however. Sounds like this school doesn't. I do not want to detract from your baby rescue post, but maybe some letters could make a difference in how they do things in the future? Maybe I could draft something we could sign? I hate to see this happen again ;( It's so hard having rats and knowing how wonderful they are and hearing about how they suffer. Better to know though and kudos for you for not turning a blind eye!!!!!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:26 am

Ratsicles-

You took in two babies that were being abused and faced certain death, and gave them a second chance. If it wasn't meant to be, accept it. You tried, and I'm sure that little guy appreciated a warm body, food, and a caring mom, if only for a day.

Here's to hoping the girl makes it, but even if she doesn't, stop beating yourself up and give yourself a pat on the back. You did far more than most anyone else would have, and you deserve to be recognized and commended for it.

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:16 am

I couldn't have said it better Ben. Big hug to you Britt, and vibes to the little girl.

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Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:35 am

I'm sorry to hear about the lil boy. Hug

I had found out hand rearing isn't very easy when I had to do the three(Cubone,Mew,Porygon)

You need to remeber that he would of been alot worse had you not had the courage to do something about it.You gave him love,warmth and a full belly.

Be strong lil girl, get better. my rats and cats send out good vibes for you to be well.

_________________
Cats:5 Raistlin,Deanna,Itty-Bitty,Cat,Maxine
Rats:5 Inyuasha,Sesshomaru,Grisom,Sidle,Kikyo
New rats:2 Marowak and Mewtwo
R.I.P
Cat:Mousie
Rat:Vertalus,Mew,Porygon,Cubone

Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:54 pm

Thanks everyone. The little girl is still going, and now that she's learned to eat she stays pretty full and manages to keep from getting most of it in her lungs. She's squirmy and vocal, still pretty thin, and she's passing waste normally too. I don't want to get my hopes up...but somehow, she seems to be hanging on.

I made an appointment to speak to the head of the science department of my college, and I'm going to just go in saying I've heard other students discussing the inhumane treatment of the animals in the psych lab, and that it concerns me. I'll ask as many questions as I can and make as many suggestions as I can without admitting I've actually gone in there and seen the rats. Since I'll have to say it was all based on things I've overheard, I'm afraid they'll just dismiss everything I say and assure me everything is fine...but I dunno. The appointment is for Monday, so I'll let everyone know how it goes.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:00 pm

Its easy enough to say that a student took you there to show you the rats. Not giving up their name would be perfectly acceptable and keeping in their trust of you.
That would also make your claims be first hand. If this comes back to something where you CAN do something, they will catch you in a lie and say you never seen them so how could you know etc etc.

If possible you should TRY to get pictures somehow..even one or two to document it. They might get scared and clean up their act just this once and then every year after you're gon carry on the same practises =/

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:45 pm

I am glad you rescued those two poor rats. Don't recriminate yourself-
you tried to help at least.

Concerning this study, it seems that the methodology is suspect. The
way that these tests are usually run is that the rat chooses the drug over food, i.e. self selecting:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/08/12/rat_addicts040812.html

The choice of drugs is also unworkable- morphine instead of cocaine.
Cocaine is a much more quickly absorbed drug, with a quick level of action and morphine isn't quite the same. I'm taking 60 to 150 mgs
of morphine daily for medical reasons, and I haven't yet gotten any withdrawl symptoms. Opiates suppress the appetite, and that is why heroin is know in Hollywood as a 'diet drug.' I'ts no wonder the rats
wouldn't eat after that.

With so many flaws in this study, it seems that the results would be worthless. Perhaps you could point this out to the administration.

I wish you success in your fight. Perhaps if this story got out to PETA,
ALF or ELF they might be of some assistance.

_________________
X: XERXES did die,
And so must I.

Last edited by Viva_Il_Papa! on Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:59 pm

Poor babies. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the little girl Hug

_________________
Shanatica aka Charlotte.

www.shanatica.dk

Belly Kiss

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 pm

I don't really know the ins and outs of the expiriment- all that I have is a little hear-say from other students. Stuff I've asked casually, snippets of conversation I've overheard. So, there may be more to the actual expiriment than I know. My stepdad says he rememers doing it only vaguely- this was 30 years ago when he was in college, and he used LOTS of live animals in experiments.

It may sound as though I'm being cowardly about it, but I just don't want to start something huge while I'm a student here. I don't want tons of letters written, I don't want to alert animal rights groups...maybe later this year after I've transferred to another college (which I was planning on doing anyway) THEN I'll try to get groups involved and that sort of thing. Right now, I just really don't want to cause something that could potentially get me in trouble or get kicked out of school...not because I don't care about the rats or their situation, but for a lot of personal and family reasons that I won't get into here. Now just is not the time for me to try that sort of thing.

Not only that, but I seriously disagree with PETA and ALF's tactics. Those are two groups that I certainly wouldn't be looking for help from...but I do get your point about getting a group with more of a voice than I have involved.

When I speak to the department head, I'll ask him if he can explain the expiriment more clearly and I'll suggest that it does contain flaws. They've been doing this expiriment yearly for over thirty years, and I don't expect them to stop. It's too late for these rats in particular- from what I've heard they're being handed out Monday- but if they're going to continue doing this year after year, I'd like to see that they at least treat them decently in the future.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 pm

Good Luck and you are a great person for doing what you did!!! Last night after reading this story I sat up and thought of what I would in the same situation, and although I'd like to say I would have saved them all, I probley would have done the exact same thing. Don't ever think differently either, you did do the right thing, and the fact that, that little boy died somewhere where he was loved instead of "unwanted" made a big difference to him I'm sure. Good luck also for the little girl, I wish I had some advice but I've never had to do raise rats from such a young age, but it seems like your doing pretty good!!!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:47 am

I've been wanting to respond to this post, but everytime I go through it I feel like my heart is being ripped up...and I know its been said in every other post, but I still want to say that what youre doing is amazing. Thankfully the little boy passed on happily and I'm really pulling for the little girl. Good luck with everything!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:40 am

Oh my gosh, you are a brave human being. I feel like giving you a crown for saving those babies. They dont deserve to die, what your school dose to rats is horrible(no offense) Nuture these babies with all of you heart, for the mommie who faught so hard to try to keep her babies alive. I know feeding babies and hand raising them is possible because my family hand fed and took care ofa kitten I found in the woods at my grandmothers cottage. He had flys and nats and fleas on him and buzzing around him... he was wobbling around, and just a few weeks old. I scooped him up and we gave him a bath. 3 years later: his name is Monay(my grandma names all of her cats after famous artists... I dont know if I spelled his name right) and he is very healthy, living his days happily at my cousins farm. He is a sweetie, and
I love him to death, even though only get to see him a few times each year. I am praying for your girl to make it, and I have always believed in miracles.

I will think of her every day, and will pray she makes it. Im so sorry that the boy died... at least he died in peace and was being cared for...my prayers and good luck to you and your girl. pray

_________________
_______________
To the world, you are one person.
To a rat, you are the world.
~Charlie S.
Kristina an her babies, Basil and Snickers.
~*RIP Ema, I miss you sweetie!*~
<:3( )~~~~~~~

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:41 am

It's not your fault, Britt... You're doing the best you can with these babies, and trying hard to balance everything in your life. You're still doing way more than many people would do and trying to do it in a reasonable and rational way.

I'm so sorry the little boy didn't make it - you know in your heart that raising babies by hand is very difficult to do and sometimes the strongest go when you least expect it, and the weakest fight on and do well (like Cerul and Pipster). Good Vibes

for the little girl - I hope she continues fighting.

Viva_Il_Papa - sorry to hear you need morphine also - I'm on morphine and fentanyl myself (equivalent of something like 300-350mg of morphine a day right now) and I most certainly have felt withdrawal effects a couple of times over the last 2 years - usually as a result of cutting my doses too quickly. Missing or being late for a single dose causes me a significant increase in my pain, but usually doesn't trigger withdrawal symptoms - that takes several days. More problematic are the appetite suppression, the nausea and vomiting, the gut slowing, the slowed physical reflexes and the horrible itching.... On the other hand, all that nausea and poor appetite has allowed me to lose 35kg (77lb) that other drug treatments meant I put on.

The physical withdrawal effects of opioids, if you stop too fast or miss enough doses are crippling - imagine the worst case of flu ever, combined with the worst case of food poisoning - so you feel feverish, hurt all over, your head pounds, you throw up, you have agonising gut cramps and diarrhoea and on top of that your heart thumps and pounds, you get restless and anxious - horrible. The severity of withdrawal effects depends a lot upon the dosages that you've been taking as well as the length of time that you have been taking them for - but even taking morphine for a couple of weeks post surgery can cause a day or two of physical withdrawal if stopped suddenly. Thankfully I've not had problems cutting down and stopping opiates in the past within days or a few weeks as long as the doses are tapered appropriately - because I have no addiction to deal with. Addiction is far harder to treat and manage than dependence.

Physical dependence is normal with many medications (including painkillers, steroids and a whole host of other drugs) because the body adjusts to their presence. Addiction, however, is a completely different demon to deal with and the fact that someone has physical dependence on opiates does not automatically make them an addict. However, because of the number of people that abuse painkillers, the line between addiction and dependence is very blurred in people's minds.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:38 am

We lost the litle girl this morning. Sad

She was fine at her 5am feeding, and again at her 7. At 9 she was dead. She had been doing fine, had gained energy, gained weight, was doing well.

I don't understand why raising baby rats is so difficult. I've done squirrels, chipmunks, opossums, and kittens and have NEVER failed with any of them. I just don't see why rats are so hard to do, especially given their hardiness as a species. *Sigh.*

I feel like I need to go take one of the older ones. I feel like something good just has to come of this thing. I can't take more babies, because they won't live...but one of the older ones might. They have to buy more than they need, since so many have died...so, I dunno. I need to think about it. I know it's silly to think about taking one...they aren't mine. I'm just so upset about the situation, and want to do something, but know that there is very little that I can actually do.

I know it's stupid, but I feel like I was shown this situation for a reason. I never listen in on other people's conversations, but for some reason I was when those students happened to be talking about the experiment...I never go randomly walking around random buildings on campus, but I did the day I found the psych lab. I feel like I'm supposed to do something about it, that this happened for a reason, and that if I don't save one, I'll be completely failing them all. Just giving up now, because of the little girl's death, seems so incredibly wrong.

I don't know, I know it's silly. I'll have to mull it over for a while anyway before I decide...but I'll have to make the decision by Monday morning. I wouldn't be able to take a female, since I don't have the space for an entire litter right now...but maybe one of the older males? I don't know. I don't know what the right thing to do would be.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:27 am

Britt only you know the right descision and we will support you no matter what you descide. RIP lil girl, you put up a good fight. Shaz

_________________

Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:37 am

Brittany, You are very brave to be meeting the head of the science department. and I understand your reluctance to start a letter-writing campaign, etc. I talked to my friend last night who is in nursing school and told him this story. He was very surprised that the university did not voluntarily follow some sort of laboratory animal welfare policy. That would be my first question to the department head. You may want to do a few searches online to back up an assertion that most universities do and provide examples of such policies. It's possible that they do have such a policy and someone is not adhering to it. In that case, maybe they will do something to highlight the policy. Wouldn't it be great to bring a squishy, freshly shampooed PEW with you to the interview? wink

I hear ya about feeling drawn to taking one. I'm sure they wouldn't miss one white rat (wink). Here is a sample of a university animal welfare page:
http://www.jhu.edu/animalcare/committee1.html
Good luck! I'm sure everyone here is very proud of you for actually being brave enough to confront the university about this and make a difference.
Angela

Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:23 am

another possibly great source of info
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_Alternatives/main.htm
What about contacting a member of the faculty who is interested in animal welfare?
http://department.caes.uga.edu/poultry/faculty/webster/webster.htm
http://www.ovpr.uga.edu/researchnews/summer99/viewpoint.html
I don't even know if you are at the U of GA, but check out their pages on animal research, esp. policies
http://www.ovpr.uga.edu/acu/index.html
sorry, I got all into doing some research into this as I was curious...The internet--down the rabbit hole!!

Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:53 am

I'm sorry to hear about the lil girl.
Goodbye young one.Your time here was short.Rest well and Play hard.

Good luck with interview.What you are doing is very brave,and I second Angela by saying we are proud of you.
Sometimes it just takes one person to stand up and say'no this is wrong.'
=^.^=
Peace be with thee.

_________________
Cats:5 Raistlin,Deanna,Itty-Bitty,Cat,Maxine
Rats:5 Inyuasha,Sesshomaru,Grisom,Sidle,Kikyo
New rats:2 Marowak and Mewtwo
R.I.P
Cat:Mousie
Rat:Vertalus,Mew,Porygon,Cubone

Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:04 am

I'm so sorry about the little girl. Sad

At least someone truly cared about her, during the short time she was alive.
I'm so sorry Britt. Hug

You did your best.

Good luck with the interview, everyone here at Rat Palace will be cheering you on.

It's people like you, who change the world for the better.

I love this quote and it kinda describes the people here at Rat Palace-

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead.

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EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:30 pm

So guess what...I got two out. Mr. Green

One is a younger girl, who seems mostly healthy except for the fact that she's skin and bones. I just gave her a bath and got her cleaned up, and she's surprisingly shiny for something that's gone so long without proper food. She was so hungry when I got her home, she started trying to eat her bedding when I put her in her Qtine cage. Sad

I intended to take a boy, but she looked up at me and reached up like she was grabbing for my hand...I couldn't say no. I just hope she isn't pregnant, but I don't see how she could NOT be...then again, the abscence of food has probably dropped her fertility.

The other is also a little girl, one of the babies who managed *somehow* to live. Her eyes have just opened and her teeth are budding, so with a little TLC she should be able to make it. There were plenty of very young babies, but I didn't want to go that route agian. Sad

She actually *isn't* skinny. She's very small for her age, but seems as though she'd gotten enugh to eat for the most part- her mother must have been doing an amazing job, managing to protect and feed her for so long.

I'll take pictures a little later...I'm going to meet with the department head at 1:00. I'll update on that ASAP.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:38 pm

I read the first line...and I started to smile. I knew that you would have to get at least two more.

They both sound really cute, especially the girl who reached out for you hand. *breaks down and cries*

Good luck with them, Brittney, and I want piccies now!!! (or as soon as you can get them).

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:58 pm

Definetly pics!!! And what a great thing you did by saving two more little ones!!! Your like a rattie saint!!!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:00 pm

Hearts are swelling all over the world for your brave act of kindness.

_________________
Rats are man's best friend. They gave up long life to be able to give more love.

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:41 am

I just read your post, and I'll be very eager to hear about how the meeting goes.
Enjoy your two new girls. They are VERY VERY lucky, not only to have been rescued, but to have been rescued by YOU.
Best of luck at the meeting, and good vibes over the netwaves to your girls. Can't wait for pics!

_________________
Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:00 am

Okay, so I talked to the department head....

And I was pleasantly surprised. Shocked

I went in prepared to put up the defensive, but he was a really nice guy. I told him that I had heard other students talking about the rats in the psych lab, that I was conerned, etc. etc. He seemed really troubled by what I told him- and he admitted that he hadn't been in there in a while, and that we could go down together and have a look at them.

We did- and of course I had to act shocked, because I was pretending I had never been in there before. He really WAS shocked- he immediately went to his secretary and had them figure out who was in charge of caring for the rats- they weren't there at the time, so he called them. He basically ripped them a new one over the phone. Mr. Green

From what I gathered they had been put in there in the container they had arrived in, and had basically been forgotten about by the lab techs. Apparently they were supposed to have been moved to another room, and put in actual cages with food and water etc. Some genius had forgotten to do this, and we later figured out that a few psych students had taken pity on them and had been dumping a little food in there once a week or so. From what I can tell, a *lot* of people are going to get in trouble over this.

We also discussed the fate of the babies- and he said they *did*euthanize all of the babies, and that it was often done with alchohol/decapitation. Sad

Supposedly when done correctly those methods have been approved and are considered humane, I guess. I asked him why they didn't just seperate the males and the females, and he said they didn't have the space. Rolling Eyes

We talked for a while, and he mentioned that he'd had a pet rat in college and that he knew they made great pets. He thanked me for bringing it to his attention, and he got someone in there (not the person in charge of the rats, I guess it was a custodian or something) to move them into the correct room and the correct cages and to make sure they were fed and watered. He let me see the room- the setup isn't great, it looks like a typical lab setup to me, with the usual little bin-type cages with the metal feeders hanging over the top- typical lab cages. It looked like they were putting them three to a cage, and the cages were clean and they all had food and lab blocks available. I didn't stick around for the whole thing- I didn't want to see the fate of the little babies, and I knew if I offered to take them they wouldn't live anyway. Embarassed

I forgot to ask about the particulars of the expiriment- I was so taken aback by how nice and cooperative he was that it didn't even occur to me. So while the whole thing isn't ideal- the rats aren't romping through fields of grass or living in big huge comfy cages with hamocks and people-love, this is about the best as I could hope for. They've got food, they've got water, they're not living off of their dead friends, and they aren't sitting on top of each other anymore. I'm so happy- and I still can't believe it turned out so well.
I was fully expecting to be laughed at and escorted out.

Anyway, I took some pictures of the girlies...I wish I had taken pictures before I bathed them, so you could all see how awful they looked- I spent over an hour washing them and picking the crud out of their coat and blow-drying them. You also just can't see how skinny the bigger girl is in these pictures...he looks thin here, but you just can't tell the extent of it. You really have to feel her to tell just how bony she is. She's got a few cuts on her belly, not bad ones, nothing that some neosporin won't fix. She's curious, and once you pick her up she's fine- but she runs and hides when she first sees me, and she completely loses it when I touch her tail- she's probably afraid of being picked up by it. Sad

With some work though, I think she'll be fine.

The little girl is a love- she eats on her own, but ive been offering her KMR off of my finger every hour or so and she licks it off and makes happy little grunty baby noises. Heart

She keeps trying to nurse off of the older girl- and I feel so awful for taking her from her mom. Sad

I just have to keep reminding myself what would have happened to her if I hadn't.

Anyway, without further ado, pictures:

Here's their quarantine cage- Its small, but I wanted to keep it one floor for the safety of the baby. Plus its a heckuva lot more room than they had before. I know I was a little excessive with the food. LOL

But She's just so skinny, I couldn't resist giving her all the good stuff I could find and watching her try them all. They have Suebee's, some blueberry muffin, grape tomatoes, broccoli, a little wet dog food, a little blueberry yogurt, and for the baby, some baby cereal in KMR.

Just remember- they didn't look this good when I got them home. The scrubbing they received is probably going to be a recurring nightmare for the rest of their lives.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:10 am

oh my....she looks like Jazmine my veriberk...and the little one is sooooo precious! I am glad that everything well, and hopefuly the situations in the future will change. I still do not agree with the babie killing part though. It is a good thing you got that little one out of there. Its an agouti right? God I love agouti rats...congrats Britt you did a good thing again! Shaz

_________________

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:14 am

Oh wow! I am truly thrilled! See, one person CAN make a difference, and all it took was a chick with the guts to stand up and question. I am so proud to even post on the same bord as you. I'm so glad the the head of the department DID SOMETHING.
Your rescues are adorable! I bet they will be the most devoted little ratties ever after such a rough start (if they ever forgive you for the bath)
((HUGS)) to you for all you've done.

_________________
Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:28 am

I'm so glad you managed to get things improved - and hopefully someone (or a group of someones) are going to get seriously whalloped for what they did.

I know it's not ideal - as rat lovers we regard rats as more than lab animals - but they are, at least, in clean cages, with more space and food and water. It's not nice what they're doing with the babies but - if done correctly - hopefully they won't suffer when they're euthanased. It's far from what we would regard as humane, but it's probably better than some of the alternative methods.

Those two girls are so adorable - I just want to take that older girly and smooch her to pieces - such a sweet face. And that baby girl... well there's nothing I can say really. She's a baby, after all!

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:20 am

You are a real

Brit! That is really commendable what you have done for all those ratties! Good luck with those babies, they are gorgeous Heart

_________________
Sally, Dave and the rats: Ruby, Rosie, Shadow, Star and Blue

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:23 am

WOW that bigger girl is beautiful! O_O

Is the little girl pinky you got still alive? =/ I was reading but I dont see a reply saying anything about her..I might jsut be blind.

Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:59 am

	Celynny wrote:
	WOW that bigger girl is beautiful! O_O Is the little girl pinky you got still alive? =/ I was reading but I dont see a reply saying anything about her..I might jsut be blind.

Unfortunately she passed away a few days ago. Sad

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:35 am

Can we start calling you Saint Ratsicles the Kind and Caring?

_________________
~Mikaela and the RitterRatten~

Blaze~Shadow~Luna~Chinchilla~Malt~Merry~Pippin~Nim~Tiri~Cinder

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:01 am

Well, if you insist.

I don't feel like I've done anything special...it all just seems like common decency to me. I'm sure you'd all do the same given a similar situation..

I'm actually seriously considering getting more involved in rescue. First Cerul, then Pip, and now these girls...I must say it's REALLY satisfying to be able to to take something out of a bad situation and watch it improve under decent care. It's fun to focus on each of them as a new "project," nursing them all back to health...I don't want to give up breeding, but I might have to give rescue some more consideration as well.

Anyway, these girlies need names. Suggestions? Mr. Green

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:06 am

I think 'Bramble' when I see the little girl, but can't think of a name for the bigger girl.

Edit: Maybe Aiko for the big girl? Aurelia?

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Last edited by amazing_rat on Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:11 am; edited 1 time in total

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:10 am

How about "Lucky" and "Radar"
The Varigated girl looks liek a Radar.
The little agouti girl looks liek a Lucky, because shes damn lucky you saved her!

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:10 am

YAY Brittany!!! You did a great thing! I am actually not that surprised by the man's reaction--most universities have animal welfare policies and know they can get into very hot water if they don't follow them. He's just lucky he got you instead--a reasonable person who wants the animals to have humane living conditions. The Psych class issue can wait. I don't blame you for forgetting it! I would have been preparing for the worst too. I still can't help but think that gas would be more humane for the babies, but hey, one step at a time. Those girlies will love you so much for rescuing them. You are a real hero today!! It was really wonderful to read this.
Angela

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:12 am

Yeay! What a good turn out for these two girls...and a decent one for the others. I really think you have done something wonderful there Brittany, I just hope that things remain better for the rats still at the lab. Meanwhile, you've got two cute babies there. I would be intersested in seeing how they grow. I always enjoy rescuing when I can as recently I have just found all 6 of my rescue litter guys some really good homes. I would not give up breeding but I am always available for rescuing.

Amy
edited to add name suggestions:
I like Nozomi (little hope) and Bear as the baby looks like a teddy bear.

_________________
Phoenix Gate Rats
www.pxrats.com

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:13 am

Awwww, the girls are so cute! You are a great person for taking them. You are giving those 2 a great life, and you greatly improved the quality of life for all those other rats.

I think you should name the baby girl some sort of nature name. I think of Bramble or Thistle when I see her. The older girl looks like a Cassie.

I think it would be great if you got into rescuing. I don't think rat rescuing is *as* big a deal in GA, but there are usually a few rats looking for good homes.

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:28 am

I really like Thistle for the older girl, and Bramble for the baby! Those names seem to fit them, and they go well together. Mr. Green

Thistle and Bramble it is.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:03 am

Sounds like good choices. Well, as I forgot to say before, Thistle and Bramble are ADORABLE. I can't wait to see how they thrive in their new enviroment. Mr. Green

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Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:16 am

This is such great news! That is so great that you were listened to and the rats are in a much better situation. So sorry to hear the little ones didn't make it but I am sure you ended up saving many more by taking a stand for those rats. Congrats on your two rescues. They are beautiful and so lucky to have been rescued by such a great rat mom. You took a stand and made a difference!
Not to be over dramatic but this reminds me of a quote I love by MLK "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter".

_________________
Rat Goddess and the Bruxysnugs
Mama Lucy Beledi Bellatrixy Tatinka Kreaver

View my rat cam here

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:18 am

I love the names Thistle and Bramble. lurve

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EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:30 am

Oh, man, YOU DID GREAT! I've followed the whole thread. (((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGE HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))) for doing the decent thing- it really isn't common for people to do it, after all. I don't know you but I am so proud of you. ((((((((((((((((((((((((MORE HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:38 pm

You have turned a very sad story into something I look forward to reading each day. I withdraw my first post.

Thank you for being there for those ratties. Thank you for rescueing those little girls. You are a hero in my book.

_________________
Rats are man's best friend. They gave up long life to be able to give more love.

Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:32 am

Wow..I'm so happy to hear what you did. It's nice to know there are other animal lovers out there just like me..Thank you for helping these guys!! As if they forgot about them...it's a good thing you noticed right away!! Best wishes to you and your new ratties!!

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~*Allie*~
Puppy: Pepper (my big suck) Kitty: Kitterz
Birdie:Mehico aka.Cheeky
Ratties: RIP Penny...i miss you pretty girl <333
Peaches n' Cream..2 bRATS
Jibroney!! --new rescue rat

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:28 am

Wow, good for you for brining those two girls out a bad situation. I cna't wait for losts of updates on them (and the Pipster too!)

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mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:34 am

How are they doing? Is the baby alright? Shaz

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Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:05 am

They're doing well- Bramble is growing and eating well, she eats solids but I still supplement her with KMR. She's really active for her age, and I think she'll grow up to be just fine.

Thistle is gaining weight, she had runny poos for a little while but I've been giving her acidophilus and yogurt and her tum is settling. She doesn't do much- she eats well, her lungs seem clear, but she just seems unhappy. She's afraid of everything- she runs and shakes when I try to pick her up, and she spooks at the slightest movement. She's afraid to build a nest, afraid to eat- making a trip to the water bottle takes her a good 15 minutes because she's so cautious and if anything spooks her she runs back to her bed, hides under her blankies, and has to start all over.

I think she'll be fine, she just needs a lot of work- the fact that she's alone(except for baby Bramble) isn't helping. I probably should have tried to get at least one other adult to keep her company while in Qtine. On the other hand, I'm worried about introducing her to my girls- she seems terrified of even Bramble, which is understandable- in the lab they were killing each other, eating each other, and attacking each other from frustration. She doesn't trust anything, including other rats- she's just extremely traumetized, and it's going to take a lot of work to get her to come around.

I'm not sure yet, but I also worry that she may be pregnant. Sad

It's too soon to tell, but she's getting a little bit of a belly- I'm hoping its just due to her eating alot, because she was *so* skinny, but I just don't know...I'll just have to wait and see. If she is, I'm prepared to help her raise and socialize the litter, but I can't keep any of them at all- I'm pretty much at my limit of 30 now, and ideally I'd like to get my numbers down to about half that before I start breeding again- so I really just don't want anymore rats for a while now. If she is pregnant, hopefully the litter will be small- it may be, since she was so malnourished.

Anyway, I'll try to get pics tomorrow. I'd appreciate it if everyone could send all of their good no-babies vibes our way.

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--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:23 am

Britt I feel with you....I am in the same situation now with 30 rats and possibly more comming. Shaz

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Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:26 am

Maybe we could come up with enough cash to get her spayed? Hopefully people can step up and adopt if she has babies, but sending no-babie vibes!! Poor girl. I'm sure she is scared and at least she has the baby. I have one boy that took months to calm down and he hates all my other male rats, so has to live alone. She doesn't know yet how lucky she is, but she'll come around in her own time and in her own way. You saved her from a life of drug addiction, after all!

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:36 am

Is it just me or does it seem like we're on an 'accidental/unwanted litter trend' here Confused

I've read so many posts recently about all these incidences...I want to help give them all homes but I can't Sad

that she just ate too much...

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~Mikaela and the RitterRatten~

Blaze~Shadow~Luna~Chinchilla~Malt~Merry~Pippin~Nim~Tiri~Cinder

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:16 am

I really do appreciate the offer to help raise money for an emergency spay...the thing is, I would worry about putting her through a surgery as skinny and emotionally unstable as she is. She really is a nervous wreck...and I would hate to do anything to upset her further, and a vet visit plus surgery may be more than she can handle right now. If need be, I do have the money for a spay- but I'd worry about putting her through it. That, and I personally have ethical issues with spaying a pregnant rat- I don't condemn anyone else for it, and in fact have suggested it to people in the past- but it's just something I have a problem with. To me, any fetuses developing inside her are the same as babies that have actually been born, and so it just doesn't seem right to me...I personally would only be able to do it if it were a life or death situation for the mother.

If she is pregnant, I'll cope, and I'll make sure all of the babies have good homes- even if that means keeping some. It might mean that everyone has to be a little cramped in the long run, and it may mean I would have to put off breeding even longer, but that's just how it is. Hopefully she isn't pregnant, and if she is, hopefully the litter will be small and people will be willing and able to adopt them.

I do appreciate the sentiments though, very much. Hug

I just don't think I could go through allowing any babies inside of her to be killed, and I'm not sure at this point that *she* could go through an emergency surgery.

I am planning on taking her to the vet Monday though just for an overall checkup...I know it's going to stress her a great deal, but I've just never seen a rat so incredibly frightened of everything....that coupled with how malnourished she is AND a possible pregnancy just makes me worry for her and I'll feel better if the vet has a look at her. Maybe he'll be able to do some x-rays to see if she's pregnant. (?) I dunno, we'll have to see. If she settles down some by then I may not even take her, as it is I try not to even walk by her cage unnecessarily to avoid freaking her out. Sad

I'm going to give her a few more days to settle in, and then we're going to have very quiet, short forced socialization sessions for a while. Hopefully, gaining come confidence around humans will help her to gain confidence around other rats and she'll have a smoother intro into my colony. Crossed Fingers

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--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:32 am

Oh, poor girl. I hope her problems are *just* socialization, and not some mental thing from poor breeding.

Moral issues aside, I would be worrried about putting her through an emergency surgery. It sounds like it would just stress her out and frighten her more, and since she isn't in great health, it could do more harm then good.

If she is pregnant Crossed Fingers

for a safe delivery. I'll try to help out as much as I can, but I doubt my parents would let me adopt any. Maybe fostering since it sounds like space is more of an issue than funds?

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Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:42 am

I agree with you about the surgery, and your ethics. You have a lot of strength to do what you think is right and I commend you! Even if she has horrible breeding, I think she'll calm down some, even if it takes a long time. I have tried both forced socialization and trust training and the latter has worked best for my two timid rats. You might try handling her at the same time each day. Then she can know when to expect you and what to expect--a short visit maybe, some treats, lots of soothing talk and say her name a lot. They can recognize their names so fast and it gives them something to reassure them--a secret code word from the person that never hurts them. She might also like playing under a small fleece blanket or towel. One of mine was very scared, but would play with my hand when he was under the blanket and my hand was over it. You are doing everything right. best wishes for them.

Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:54 am

I have always heard that for really unsocialized rats (abused and terrified, not just unsocialized), forced socialization works best. Trust training seems to take A LOT longer in those cases, and since she is probably pregnant, I think it would be best to get her at least more excepting of people as soon as possible.

I second what scrubjay said about letting her play under a blanket. That worked well with Shadow (who was completely unsocialized when I got him).

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Rosie

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I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat