scratches or scabs?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:35 am

The other day I was petting my rat Ricky and there were some parts of his fur that felt kind of crusty...it was on his back so I thought maybe he had something stuck in his fur (yogurt or pee or something...crazy rats) and he couldnt reach it to groom it out. So I started trying to unstick it for him, when I realized that it was a scab or a scratch. I couldnt figure out what it was for sure because he was too squirmy and his fur was in the way. Do you think if I gave him a bath it would help me see whats there a little better, because it would make his fur flatter and easier to part? Also, a bath would help to clean him if he is scratched or scabby, right? I just don't know because I've never bathed him (I've only had him for a few weeks) and I thought I read somewhere not to bathe them unless its absolutely necessary. Is that true, or does it matter?

Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:41 pm

well I personally wouldnt bathe him, but Im certainly no expert on the subject. Any kind of soap would irritate it, and water might soften it up and make it come off. Is it just one scab? If theres more than one, it could be mites or something like that.

My rat had a scab on her ear for a long time and it never healed (she used to play rough and it would just keep coming off), so if you have another rat or animal in the house .. it could be a scratch from playing with them. I dont have any great advice on how to get a good look at it, but I know someone mentioned a good way to hold your rat in the "ratt scruff" thread recently.

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Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:51 pm

It's probably just a scratch unless there is more than one spot that it's in. When I first got my guys they fought and Peachy made a scratch above Creamys nose..the scratch was there for only about 3 days...so just check to see if it looks like it's healing..like getting smaller and scabbing. Maybe instead of bathing him you could just take some water on a cloth and gently wipe the area.

_________________
~*Allie*~
Puppy: Pepper (my big suck) Kitty: Kitterz
Birdie:Mehico aka.Cheeky
Ratties: RIP Penny...i miss you pretty girl <333
Peaches n' Cream..2 bRATS
Jibroney!! --new rescue rat

Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:06 am

I checked Ricky again today and the scab is much bigger. I'm not sure that he got it from fighting...Pete and him fight a bit, but not much from what I've seen and I dont think they've ever drawn blood. My other two rats dont have scabs or anything, so I dont think its mites, and they all eat the same thing so I'm not sure if it could be their diet...I'm going to take a warm washcloth to it tonight...I hope its not anything serious...

Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:03 pm

Not all rats will get scabby if you have mites.

The scabbing from mites is caused by the rat scratching until the skin breaks, causing bleeding and sometimes a minor infection.
The itching depends purely on how sensitive (allergic) the rat is to the saliva of the mites.
Some rats are very sensitive and itch like crazy, so get scabby quickly. Some rats have no sensitivity to the saliva, and so rarely if ever get scabby (except if neglected in severe infestations). Almost everyone finds that they have one or two rats that tend to get itchy before the others during mite or other bug problems if they have a colony.

In humans, it's often reported that an itchy head is a symptom of headlice in all cases - but in actual fact only 30% of people itch during infestation with headlice.... the other 70% are blissfully unaware until someone spots bugs or nits (the egg cases) in their hair.

It's also possible he has an abscess under there that is weeping and scabbing, but isn't healing. It's also possible that he's sensitive to something in the diet - protein sensitivity is basically a hypersensitivity reaction, similar to an allergy, that occurs with certain proteins or large amounts of protein - what constitutes a large amount depends on the individual rat and their immune systems. It's not as common really as people seem to believe, but it does happen and, of course, the rat could be allergic to anything - diet wise, environmental (such as litters, food dyes, washing powders or conditioners etc). But in all likelihood, scabbiness will be down to mites or some kind of infection or wound.

If you're not sure what it is, and it's increasing in size, I'd take him to get checked by a vet - they can take a look and let you know if it's multiple small sores from mites that have formed a big scab, or if it's a single source such as a bite, wound or abscess - or even an infected cyst or something similar.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes - if you do get a better look at what is going on after you soak it, then perhaps pictures or a description may help, but a vet is still probably your best bet.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:01 pm

I didn't get a chance to soak it down last night, but I'll have more time tonight so I will for sure.

I don't know if this will help anyone help me narrow it down, but there is only one scab on him, and it is on top of his neck, but his shoulder blade. I'm not sure he can reach there to scratch and I've never seen him try to scratch there. I've felt around the scab and there are no bumps or anything absess-like forming under it. Also it doesnt seem to be weeping.
Tonight I'll soak it and see if I can see anything any better...I'll try to take a picture but I've misplaced my USB cord so I'm not sure if I'll be able to download anything.

I know its no substitution for vet care, and I will take him to the vet if need be.

If it was mites or something like that, would I be able to see anything in their fur? Also, are mites and fleas treated the same way when it comes to getting rid of them?

How do they even get mites?

This scab didn't show up until this past week...around the same time their poops started being soft, so also around the same time their diet changed...I did change their diet rather quickly by adding suebees and fruits and vegetables to go along with their lab blocks...could this have anything to do with it?

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:19 pm

Any change in diet can bring up problems - but then again, an allergy can develop at any time, to something you have been eating happily with no problems for many years! As long as you're feeding the Suebees as it's intended, with the correct balance of grain to kibble/blocks and fresh foods, you should be ok - what are you using as the protein source? Kibble or lab blocks and which ones?

They can scratch between their shoulderblades. They can't wash it too easily (they have to lick their back paws and then scratch with it) but the neck and shoulders and jaw are prime spots for mite scabs.

Mites can appear in a whole manner of ways - you can bring them in on your clothes, in bedding/litter (Carefresh particularly is notorious for it, because of the style of the bag, but it's also been linked to other litters), from new rats, from anything that could have come into contact with other pet or wild rodents basically. Some sources also believe that mites can live commensally on them in small numbers, and only cause problems when some stressor happens that causes the mites to become more numerous (or they develop the allergy to the saliva after a certain amount of exposure, rather than on the first few bites).

Treatment for mites, lice, fleas and certain other parasites (such as some intestinal worms) is the same - ivermectin. Some vets will suggest or recommend other products (Selamectin/Revolution is another relatively common one, but also Advantage, Frontline etc have been used). Ivermectin is the most tried and tested and is relatively safe as long as you give it orally or topically at the correct dose (you do need to measure it carefully to weight, which is why it's recommended to go to the vet for it, and the mite diagnosis if you're unsure, rather than home dosing - insecticide medications are relatively easy to overdose on and have quite nasty overdose symptoms). It's also recommended not to inject ivermectin, as some vets will try to do, because it has been linked to a higher rate of side effects. You also need to clean, hotwash, bleach, hoover and treat with sprays or powders the cage, contents, carpet etc. With ivermectin, you give a dose once a week for every rat, for three weeks - but you usually see improvments within a week or two. The other products might only be given once a month - it depends on the product.

Generally, you can't see mites. Certain types of mite might be just large enough to see specks in the fur, but in most cases no - and some of them burrow into the skin or hair follicles to hide. Lice and fleas are easier to see, but they move like lightning and still aren't that large. You may see lice eggs as nits stuck to the fur though. Vets can test for them with things like skin scrapings, but they can give false negatives - so diagnosis is often made on symptoms to save scraping the rats.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:50 pm

They get lab blocks, but unfortunately they come in bulk at the pet store and don't have a brand or anything. I give them a few lab blocks every day, so they have something to eat while I'm not home and then they get suebees at night when I go to bed, usually along with some fresh veggies and fruit. Should they be getting less lab block now that they have suebees? Sometimes its hard for me to tell how much lab block they eat during the day and how much they just stash.

Tonight I'll inspect him a lot more carefully...I'm pretty sure its just the one scab, but I'll poke and prod at him. I'll soak it down so hopefully I can see it a little more clearly. If it looks like its still getting bigger I'll make a vet appointment.

This is not a good time for a vet appointment though, as I was saving up to get them a new cage next week Sad

The cage the pet store sold me is way too small. I knew I'd have to buy another cage eventually for when they got bigger, but the pet store didnt have any bigger cages that had the correct spacing and I was led to believe that I could go a few months with the cage I have. Ha, once I did more research on cage sizes I realized that my cage is only big enough for one rat. And I've got three rapidly growing baby male rats in there Mad

I've only had them for a month and I decided over a week ago that they needed a new cage ASAP...so that cage was really only good for all of 2 weeks Mad

I'll be able to spend the $50 on the vet exam, no problem...but hopefully I'll be able to squeeze out the extra money for the new cage next week.

Thanks for all your help LW, you're a life saver! I'll update later when I inspect my poor scabby little boy Confused

Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:03 pm

Aww poor Ricky!! I also have to bring my guys to the vet for a flea-check..and my new guy has bumblefoot Sad

Does Ricky itch alot?? My rats seem to itch tons but they have no scabs or bumps of any sort..I thought I might have seen small black dots on Creamy's white fur though. Are you going to Winrose for the check-up? Maybe ours will be on the same day so I can meet your guys

_________________
~*Allie*~
Puppy: Pepper (my big suck) Kitty: Kitterz
Birdie:Mehico aka.Cheeky
Ratties: RIP Penny...i miss you pretty girl <333
Peaches n' Cream..2 bRATS
Jibroney!! --new rescue rat

Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:42 pm

I'm sorry for your poor bumblefooted Jibroney Sad

Ricky seems to itch a lot...more than the others. I hope its not mites or anything, but I guess I'll see when I bring him to the vet. I hope your guys don't have fleas or anything either!

I will be going to Winrose, but I'm not sure when...I'm going to check Ricky more closely today before I make an appointment. But hey, I live almost right across the street from Winrose, so if you really want to meet my guys you can always stop by, or I can stop by Winrose

Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:18 am

I checked Ricky over again as soon as I got home and he has a couple more tiny tiny scabs behind his ear as well...so I called the vet, pretty much intending to make an appointment. But I always explain the problem and get an opinion when I call before I make an actual appointment. It was suggested that since I've had them for a month and they havent come into contact with any other animals, and they all came from the same place, and neither of the other two are showing any itchiness or anything by now, that mites might not be the problem. I told her that I did change their diet and that the scabs seemed to happen around that time. She said that I could try to cut out thier home mix for a little bit and go back to mostly just lab blocks, and then see if it gets any better. Then if that does make a difference, introduce the foods I was giving him again, but one by one in order to see if there might be a sensitivity to a certain food. If it doesnt get any better after a few days of limiting their foods then I could make an appointment. Until then she suggested I just keep the area clean with a warm wash cloth.

What do you guys think? Should I wait it out a week and stop giving them the suebees and see how Ricky is by this time next week? Or should I just make an appointment right away?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:37 am

Honestly? I'd think it's probably more likely to be down to mites than diet. It's unlikely to be protein problems (adding the fresh products and grains are going to reduce their overall protein levels) but of course, that doesn't exclude a sensitivity to something else.

The fact that they haven't been in contact with other animals means nothing - you will have been into the pet store to collect food and litter (I presume - I'm not sure what litter you're using) and could have brought them into the house on you. The little pains can hang around for a fair while without rats and so a month isn't really that long a time.

If you really think it could be diet, then by all means, cut out everything you've added and put them back onto the lab blocks, then you can try introducing things one at a time. But honestly, I'd still - as he has scabs and is itchy - be looking at mites as a more likely cause than diet, simply because it's the most usual cause of problems - doesn't mean it always is (and it's perfectly possible that diet is the problem) but it very often is. My first lot of mites appeared when we hadn't brought any new rats in for about 4-5 months. Blink

You can give him a week if you want to - try cutting out the home mix. See if you see any improvements and then go from there. My Charlie would itch from colourants in Reggie Rat, so it might be something simple.

Can you detail exactly what you've used to make up your mix, with brand names if you have them etc?

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:38 am

I just noticed on the lab block bag there was actually a tiny ingredient list...for protein it said 20% (min)..is that a lot?
As for exactly whats in the home mix...I went mostly by suebees, but I also looked at your "Andy's Mix" from the diet threat, LW. We don't have Total cereal, but I read that someone else substituted that for Just Right, which we do have here so thats what I used. Otherwise I think everything I bought was bulk or generic, so there are no brand names.

Its so confusing when the vet's say one thing, but rat experts say another Sad

Do you really think its okay to wait a week and cut out the home mix? Because if you really think it isnt diet then I'll bring him as soon as I can.
I'm not trying to avoid bringing him in at all costs or anything...but my past experiences with the vet in general have been that they usually can't tell me anything, or do anything, but they still take my money. But I've never had rats and I dont want to put Ricky in danger or anything. Could it really hurt him to wait a week?

Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:45 pm

This is nothing to do with anything...smile

but as you said you were buying a new cage

did you know you can sometimes get really decent cages on ebay for a decent price....smile

Good luck with your problem your getting excellent advice here

smile
Deb

_________________
Rosie Ginger Gypsy Bambie Beatrice Cassie Kira Shapelle Shelley kath Kim Corby Chloe kimmies bubs: Leelee Lilly Molly Morgan Jassie Jayjay Tess n Tammy
Roxy 30/06/2004 to 28/11/2005 Relaxing on the banks of the river at Rainbow Bridge

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:08 pm

Thanks Deb, but I have checked ebay

There hasnt been anything decent the past couple times I've checked. I think I found a really good cage here in my city for a really decent price, I just have to go check it out next week.
If worse comes to worse I can use my line of credit to cover the vet bill (since that will be cheaper than the cage) and I'll still have enough money in my account to by the cage.

Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:36 pm

20% is ok - its higher than they need, but the Harlan blocks that are usually used for pet rats are either 18% or 23% protein. The fact that you've used them before and it was after the diet change (where you added in lots of cereals, pasta and fresh stuff) probably means that you have reduced their overall protein levels rather than increased it. So protein sensitivity probably isn't the issue, especially if you're following pretty faithfully the Suebee's mix.

From the bulk bins, are these mainly the pure grains - the things like puffed rice/wheat, oats etc? If so, it's unlikely to be any additives from those. If any of the ingredients have artificial additives or colours, that may be an issue. But again - if it's a real allergy, then it could be to pretty much anything.

I'd say go with your gut feelings. If it is mites, you don't want to be leaving it too long without treatment (though a week probably isn't going to be too much of a risk) but if there's a chance it could be something else (such as an infection of some kind) then you probably don't want to wait too long before getting it checked.

You can try giving him a bath - an oatmeal bath might soothe him. Run some hot water through a handful of uncooked porridge oats (the real ones, not instant stuff) in a piece of muslin or cloth - I just tie it up in a knot around the hot tap and turn it on. It makes the water a bit milky, but it can be soothing to itchy skin. See if you can clean up the back of his neck (for example, see if the scab is attached to the skin, or the fur, and if you can clean it away). If you can get a better look at it, then it might give you some more clues.

If you want to try the diet change, to see if there's an obvious cause and effect, then go for it, if you feel that it's most likely to be that. Hopefully, if it is, it will clear up (though the scab may take a while to come off, if it's really stuck in his fur etc) but often dietary causes take a while to identify. You could try though, and see if there is any obvious change in his condition.

And glad to know that my diet helped you plan for their food, but sorry that I'm confusing you. Ultimately, you need to go with your gut feeling here. I'm not a vet, and yes - it's confusing at times (and frustrating) not to get a straight answer.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:00 pm

No no, *you're* not confusing me! You're helping me! I'm inclined to trust more of what you say than what the people at the vet office say. I guess whats confusing to me is that you're encouraging me to take him to the vet, who should be the "expert" but then the vet tech that I talked to was saying that it was more likely to be food related than mite related, which is the opposite of what you're saying. So, I know that he can only get proper care from the vet, but I feel like because they aren't echoing what you're telling me that maybe they don't know what they're talking about...did that make sense? Maybe you could fly down to Canada and take care of my rat instead of the vet LOL

I probably won't be able to get an appointment until next week anyway, plus next week is pay week so that will be better financially. I'll make the appointment for next week just so that I have it, and then if there are any significant changes in the next week then I can always just cancel.

As for their food, the only thing that might have additives would be the puffed rice...because I used the rice crispies that I already had. I had almost forgot those were in there. The puffed wheat was just a no-name brand and everything else was from the bulk bins. I roasted the soybeans myself, so theres nothing in there. I didnt realize that adding grains and such actually lowered protein levels.

I'll try the oatmeal bath thing tonight...although it won't be easy. He didn't like the warm cloth too much, I don't think he'll take too kindly to a bath. Thank you for suggesting the oatmeal bath, the vet's office couldnt really suggest anything I could do for him to help him along in the meantime.

Thank you for everything LW! I'm sorry to take up so much of your time with this thread Embarassed

I'll update if anything changes with Ricky

Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:37 am

No, it makes perfect sense.

Sadly, some vets really aren't that familiar with rats... For example, sneezes... although not every sneeze and sniffle automatically demands antibiotics in a rat, mycoplasma actually, in research, prefers to infect the nasal membranes first, and only progresses to infect and damage the lungs later on in the disease - so myco very often starts off with nasal symptoms, snorkiness, maybe excess porphyrin discharge, associated middle ear or inner ear infections and so on.... and yet so often I have seen people write that their vet has said "it must be allergies because all the congestion is in the nose" - and that's frustrating because noses can get infected as well! After all, no-one would turn around to a person running a fever with sinusitis and say "Oh, it couldn't possibly be bacterial, it must be an allergy...." would they?

I also have to admit that my first vet (not very knowledgable on rats, but stayed up all night and in between his patients the next day reading everything he could find, trying to find something that might help Malachi when he developed pneumonia, prescribed the meds I suggested thanks to the wonderful help of everyone here on RP, and even gave me a prescription for nebuliser medications even though he'd never heard of them being used in a rat! - so not as great as having an experienced rat vet, but much better than just any old vet for sure wink

) turned around to me after Mal recovered from the pneumonia, when we were in getting one of the others checked over for something (probably Stevie and his sniffles) and said "Oh.... by the way, one of the other rat owners came in yesterday, and they're having real problems trying to clear up a mite infestation - what would you suggest is the best way to clear them up?" LOL

So I told him the routine (3 weekly doses of ivermectin oral/topical, cage, carpet, contents, play areas, soothing baths, freeze litter etc) and suggested other options if it was more persistant (like other medications, possible infections, non-standard bug infestations, allergies, diet etc) and popped back the next day with a pile of info from here and Ratguide. wink

I must admit, I was feeling pretty chuffed about that when a month later or so, he told me that the rats were now bug and itch free.

I'd love to be a professional - I still have so much to learn and experience, but it combines my two favourite things (medicine and ratlets) so I am a bit of a geek over it. wink

I always do say to check with your vet - ultimately, I'm just an enthusiastic amateur and the last thing I'd want to do, ever, would be for some advice I give to result in harm... so if in doubt, ask a vet. wink

Rice crispies are probably ok - they're not as ideal as puffed whole grains of rice (because they're basically puffed rice flour, salt, sugar etc reformed into "grains") but they probably don't have anything that would specifically be a problem in causing itchiness.

Adding in foods that are lower in protein (such as veg and fruit, which have quite a high fibre and water content) will mean that, overall, the percentage of protein is less... Just as an example, and these figures are just made up for demo purposes, but are roughly accurate:

Lab Blocks have ~20% protein
Grain Mix has ~12% protein
Frozen pea/carrot mix has ~3% protein

If you use these in the recommended amount (so 80% staple (40% blocks, 40% grain) and 20% fresh (the peas and carrots)) you can work out how much the average protein amount would be.

Per 100g of full diet
40% blocks = 40g = 8g protein
40% grain = 40g = 4.8g protein
20% veg = 20g = 0.6g protein

Total protein = 13.4g protein in 100g of diet
Overall protein level is 13.4%.

For comparison, the overall protein in the blocks alone is 20%, and the overall protein for 80% blocks, 20% veg is 16.6%.

That's probably way more info than you wanted though. wink

And don't worry about taking up my time - it's perfectly fine.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:06 am

I'm not surprised you were giving the vet advice LOL

My vet is one of the few in our city that deals with small animals, so I hope she actually knows what shes doing. I didnt talk directly to her when I called the vet the first time, so I hope I get advice close to what you've given me whan I go see her.

Thanks for the food info

I think I was giving them too many vegetables before, judging by what youre saying...at least I can narrow it down to food for the soft poop problem they were having (that stopped since I cut down on veggies and fruit)

As for Ricky's scab problem...I think he scratched them off today Confused

I picked him up and felt for scabs...I didnt feel any, but my finger came away wet with blood Sad

So I cleaned him up with a warm cloth..although he tried to get back onto my shoulder, he sat pretty still throughout most of it

He's such a good little boy. I called the vet to make an appointment, but they were already closed (I thought they were open later on Thursdays, but I guess not). I'll make an appointment tomorrow. Maybe I can get him in on the weekend...I'm not sure I want to wait until next week if he's going to be picking off all the scabs and bleeding from it. I don't want him to end up getting infected. Should I be putting something on the area to prevent any infection?

I wish I could bring the internet with me to the vet...that way when they tell me what to do I can type a quick question to make sure they know what they're talking about LOL

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:53 am

Yes, portable internet is a useful thing.

If you have some neosporin cream, then you can put that on the open skin to help prevent infection. What does it look like on the skin - can you see?

It's also possible to use something like salt water or a petsafe disinfectant (betadine is often recommended) to wash it out. I wouldn't recommend peroxide, as it can damage newly healing tissues sometimes. Saltwater might sting like crazy, but it's pretty good at cleaning any bugs.

Hopefully the vet can help you out for sure - and yes, giving lots more veggies than that would definitely encourage squishiness of the bottom. Not pleasant. Charlie's guts didn't like the sweetener in kid's ibuprofen syrup (mannitol) and that gave him the squits every time.... he stuck with metacam after the first couple of bouts. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:57 am

I couldnt really see what it looked like very clearly...it didn't look like there was any kind of infection or anything, there was just a bit of blood but no pus or anything infection-like...then again, I don't exactly know what I'm looking for.

The scab is forming again, so its not really open anymore. We don't have any actual Neosporin here...we have a generic brand of antibiotic cream...It says it has bacitracin zinc (500 units) and polymyxin B sulfate (10,000 units). Is this the same thing pretty much, in case he rips it open again? If not I'll pick up some neosporin tomorrow.

I really don't want to put him through salt water...its not like I could explain to him why I'm doing it, so he'd probably hate me forever for hurting him Puppy Dog Eyes

I do know not to use peroxide though! I'm so happy there is one thing I actually know! I have a few of piercings and so I know that peroxide damages newely healing tissues

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:41 am

No, he wouldn't hate you forever, especially if you bribed him with a yoggie or other favourite treat afterwards. wink

And I'm pretty certain you know plenty of stuff - it's just it takes time to pick up things as you go along. It would be nice if you could just get a chip or memory implant with comprehensive rat information though, wouldn't it? Mr. Green

Just a couple of years and a bit back, I was a complete rat novice too - I knew very little and I had to spend months learning it all too - and that was part of the reward - people taught me, and now hopefully I can teach other people too.

I'm not too sure about that cream - it has different antibiotic products in, and I wouldn't swear it's ok to use or not. Is it an over the counter thing you can just pick up, or is it a prescription one?

When you looked at the skin - did it look basically like a graze or sore spot - so just the top layers taken off? Or could you see a dip, hole or pit in the skin? The main thing though is that there was no pus or gunk, so that's good news.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:25 pm

The cream is just an over the counter cream, its just a cheap generic brand. I can pick up some actual neosporin just to be safe.

It didnt look like there was a hole or a pit in his skin...it looked to me like more of a graze, from what I could see. But I'm worried that the more he keeps scratching at it the worse its going to get. I want to cut his back claws because they're so sharp right now and it can't be helping when he's scratching so much...but I'm not sure I could convince my boyfriend to help me hold him, and I dont think I can do it on my own. I can clip their front claws with almost no problem, but their back claws are another story. I'm going to try tonight anyway though. I'll have to go back to that nail clipping thread and see if I can find any useful techniques.

In a couple years I'll be happy if I know even half of what you do about rats!

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:33 am

You'd be surprised how it builds up in your memory. wink

If you can't trim the back claws, perhaps just blunt them off with a nail file or emory board? If you can do that, so the tips aren't so sharp, it would do just fine.

The good thing is that with no obvious hole, pit or gapey wound, then it's not deep, so the chances are it's not an abscess, a bite etc. Something is irritating his skin, and now we just need to find out precisely what it is - mites, diet, other allergy etc.

If he doesn't like full baths, you can always make oatmeal water, as if you were bathing them, and wipe him down with it or dab it onto his itchy areas - see if that helps?

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:32 am

So Ricky has a vet appointment for Monday night at 7:30. His scab just keeps getting bigger, and I'd rather not wait the whole week to see if it gets any better. I'm going to get neosporin and give him some oatmeal baths to try to ease his discomfort. At least its the weekend now and I can spend more time with him during the day to try to stop him from scratching.

If I can hold him down properly it would probably be quicker for me to just clip his nails than to file them. I'm used to holding struggling cats so I can do it pretty quickly...the problem with rats is that they're so small they can wriggle right out of your hands and you can't hold them as firmly...but I'll figure it out!

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:00 am

Aye - they do twist themselves into weird and wonderful positions. wink

It helps if you have an extra pair of hands.

Good Vibes

and hopefully this will soothe his itches a bit, and the vet can recommend the best course of treatment for him.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:37 am

Well, I took Ricky to the vet tonight, and there aren't any mites or anything. The only suggestion they could think of was to change his bedding (he's currently on Aspen shavings) in case he's sensitive to it. His scab is looking much better, I probably didnt really have to take him in after all, but I did just in case. They gave me some baytril, to help the scab along in its healing...for some reason I thought baytril was for something else?

Anyway, the good news is he's fine

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:38 am

Pheebs, only one of my six boys showed scabs when they got mites. He had tiny scabs on the neck, shoulder, back area. I went through the same thought processes as you have regarding protein, why only one has scabs, etc. I could be wrong too, but once I treated for mites (I didn't do a vet test, she just agreed it was probably mites), the scabs cleared up. The boy was healthy, but kind of a runty boy. I could see no evidence of mites apart from the scabs--no tiny motes or anything. and the vet agreed that even skin scrapings or fur tapings often show negative. After much forum spelunking, I decided to go with kitten/puppy Revolution (selamectin) measured by weight and applied topically--tiny drop between the shoulders. Treated once and then again after two weeks. Cleaned cages religiously and froze bedding and vacuumed, but did not spray or dust with any other poison in their play areas. I was really worried the mites wouldn't be cleared up easily, but they seem to be gone (knock on wood). The scabs disappeared and have not been seen since. Anyway, that's just my experience and it may not be what is going on with your Ricky. I wish I could clip the toenails of my boys, but I have never been able to do it. I give up too easily I guess wink

Baytril for the scab--do they think he has a systemic infection like staph maybe?
Angela

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:08 pm

Staph? I've never heard of that...he doesn't have an infection at all to my knowledge. His scab seemed to be clearing up fine on its own without any signs of infection. Do you think the baytril is unecessary?

I did mention to the vet that I thought it could be mites, but she said lice is more common, so she was looking for louse eggs and didn't see any (which I expected because I thought something like lice would be a little more visible)

He seems fine, he's not picking at his scab much and there aren't any new ones, its just been that one and a very small other one by his ear. His skin does seem really flaky though...I don't know if thats normal but just more noticeable on him because he's black hooded...was your rat flaky?

Can Revolution be bought in stores? I seem to remember using something like that way back when my cats had fleas...
What do you suggest I do? I don't trust the vets much because I've heard so much about mites in my research, but the vet seemed to just dismiss it as a possiblity...

Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:55 pm

No, the vet is probably wrong... mites are almost certainly more common and if she didn't do a skin scraping, she can't say they were checked for. Because some of them tend to lurk in the hair follicles or under the skin too, it can mean that even if you take skin scrapings, it can come back negative. Mites are definitely still a possibility and like Scrubjay, my vet usually doesn't bother with the skin scraping initially but goes based on symptoms. In each case, the ivermectin has cleared them up within a week.

Baytril is an antibiotic and a pretty broad spectrum one at that... it will protect against infections, and treat any infections already there.... Staph is short for Staphylococcus - it's a group of bacteria and some often live on skin. Usually it refers to Staph. aureus and often causes skin infections, wound infections, abscesses etc. It's unlikely to be serious but staph can cause minor or more major infections of the skin, making it hard to clear up scabs - no matter their origin.

I'm not sure if you can get revolution in stores, but you need to be very careful - you just need a fraction of the tube of the kitten product. It should really be done by weight, as should ivermectin. If you can't persuade the vet to prescribe ivermectin or Revolution and dose it for you, then you can also get ivermectin paste (horsewormer) from stores which you can carefully mix and give a tiny amount to them (the size of an uncooked grain of rice for a 1lb rat and more or less if they weigh more or less).

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:05 pm

Could the ivermectin hurt them if there are no mites? If not, then why wouldnt she prescribe something like that? All the mite symptoms are there, yet she pretty much dismissed that.

She weighed Ricky, but I can't remember what his weight was...they didnt give me any papers with the results of the exam or anything. The number 282 or 228 keeps popping into my head, but I suppose I can always call the vet and ask them to check his record. My rats are all around the same size...no one is really noticeably bigger than the other...would that be safe enough to go by with Revolution?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:55 pm

Theoretically, giving any medication unnecessarily should be avoided - but giving the ivermectin even if there aren't mites present isn't going to be harmful simply because the mites aren't there. It's not something to regularly do, but it's probably worth a try.

Aye - you can give them the revolution... Usually I'd recommend using a small syringe to measure it out because it's not a large dose in the product but if you're concerned about that, the worming paste would be ok - you'd want to give them a piece around half the size of an uncooked grain of rice.

The mauve kitten packet has (I believe) 0.25mls of solution in. Normally you'd give 0.1ml or 0.13mls to a 1kg rat (so up to half a tube for a 1kg rat). You'd be looking at giving a quarter of that if your rats are all around that size. I'm not sure how many "drops" each of those tubes contains though if you just drop it out directly....

Perhaps, if Scrubjay or someone else who has used it before can help out here - and let us know how many drops a tube produces, it can give an idea. I think I remember someone else (not sure who) saying that for small rats they put the drop onto something else and just rubbed a little of it onto the rat... I'm not sure though.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:01 am

The vet office gave me a small syringe for the baytril...I have to give Ricky baytril for 10 days, twice a day. If there still seems to be a problem after the medicine and after I change the bedding then should I go for it with the Revolution, using the little syringe to measure it out? Or is 10 days too long to wait to try treating for mites?

What kind of stores would sell ivermectin paste?

Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:15 am

To be honest, you can treat with the Baytril and the ivermectin/revolution at the same time. Did the vet see evidence that the wound was infected, or has she prescribed it simply as a "see what happens just in case" thing?

I'm not sure how easily you can get the revolution solution out of the tubes it comes in - you may need to use a needle to extract it, but a 1ml syringe would work in terms of measuring it... the problem is when dealing with such small volumes, it can be hard to measure and give them. Hopefully someone who has used Revolution can give you some more advice on it, or Scrubjay can.

The ivermectin paste is a horse worming paste. You may be able to get it at any feed/tack store, and even some larger pet stores perhaps. Otherwise, you can purcahse it online. If you go to http://www.ratguide.com/meds/ and select the antiinfectives section on the left, ivermectin and selamectin/Revolution will both be in the lists. They will give you some more advice, and if you check out the Health section, they also have an article on ectoparasites (mites, lice, fleas etc) and getting rid of them.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:48 am

Hi you guys,
The drawbacks to the Revolution is that you do have to weigh your rats and the amount you dose some of them can be ridiculously small and difficult (but not impossible!) to measure. I just bought a wonderful digital scale accurate to 2 g for weighing my rats. I can get the name when I get home--it was about $30 and I got it at Linens and Things--kind of a chain store. and the Revolution is kind of expensive and you have to have a prescription. But it did work great, it dried fast and the rats didn't lick at it, and as far as I know, no mites or lice are resistant. I can send you the formula I used for measuring doses of Revolution. My doses ranged from 0.02 ml to 0.05 ml, which I carefully measured using a 0.5 ml syringe. I'm kind of paranoid about such things.

Kitten Revolution is 60 mg/ml concentration. The correct dosage is 6 mg/kg.
Say your rat weighs 500 g, that equals 0.5 kg
6 mg x 0.5 kg = dose for your rat of 3 mg
3 mg divided by 60 mg/ml = 0.05 ml gives you the dose of 3 mg

I don't blame you if this is cryptic. My math is getting a little better since having to medicate rats, but I'm not good at explaining equations.

Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:27 am

Aye, I get you with the maths.

That's what I was trying to explain too... there's (I think) 0.25mls in a kitten tube, which is 15mg - enough for 2 kg of rat. But trying to divide that tiny amount is not easy to do. But definitely I'm with you about carefully working out dosages, especially with things like insecticide products like these and other drugs where it's very easy to overdose or underdose.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:21 am

Half the poison soaked into my own skin trying to measure it out the first time I did it. ooops. But I don't have mites I guess!