Simon has megacolon

Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:53 am

My Simon (6 months old), who is high-white, was just diagnosed with late-onset megacolon. He's had 3 enemas at the vet so far, and I was just taught how to do them at home. The pharmacy should call tomorrow to get my info to send me the Cisapride. He's already been separated from his brother & sister (the boys are neutered), and is on the mc diet. I am praying that we can stabilize him- if so, the two other ratties can spend all day cuddling with him in his cage, and go back to their own for lab blocks at night. He gets lots of playtime with them now, but I need to monitor the poop situation without any other poop in there. Not that Simon's pooping on his own anyway.

Rat Goddess, I just read your thread about Tatinka. Your Tatinka & Kreaver are SO cute and sound so sweet. Hang in there. Feel free to PM me anytime. I suspected the possibility of megacolon about a month ago, and did my research then, but the full-blown disease is hard-hitting, isn't it?

Best wishes, and send them our way, too. ((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Love,
Paula

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:03 am

Oh Paula - I'm so very sorry.... We've had such bad luck - you're the third person to have a diagnosis of megacolon in the last few days or so. Sad

and

and gentle tummy rubs for Simon - hopefully the diet changes, cisapride and everything else will help to keep him comfortable, and many many Hug

for you - I can only imagine how hard this must be for you, and I know that having a special needs ratty in the house can be hard emotionally sometimes. I don't know much (other than theory) about megacolon, but if you need to chat about looking after a special needs ratty, just shout.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:52 am

Oh my, this makes me nervous. I have Simon's brothers, Little Bit and Gil. I am so nervous now, but the ratties seem fine for now. Both the boys are silently praying for their brother's survival. Crossed Fingers

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Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:58 am

Cricketsong,
I am so sad to hear that your Simon has megacolon. As you have read my threads you know I know exactly how you feel. It is such a horrible disease and I don't know about you but it made me feel so helpless. Debbie can give you alot of good advice on MC as she has more experience than me. She has helped me alot. Perhaps the diet changes and Cisapride will make a big difference for Simon. I know it has for Tatinka. I haven't had to resort to enemas as I believe her problem is mostly right near the opening of her anus.
Is the only way he can go is with an enema? How can you tell if he needs to go or do you just have to help him at set intervals?
I am keeping my fingers crossed tightly for Simon. At least at this point you know what is causing his problems and can do what you can to help. The way I feel about Tatinka is that since it is a genetic disease there is really nothing I can do to cure it. I can only try to alleviate any symptoms she has, provide her with the proper diet and medicine and give her as much love and spoiling as I can. Try to stay calm and just know you are doing the best you can for him.
You are welcome to pm me or email me anytime. Hugs to you. Hang it there.

_________________
Rat Goddess and the Bruxysnugs
Mama Lucy Beledi Bellatrixy Tatinka Kreaver

View my rat cam here

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:59 am

Try not to panic too much - it's really not very common for congential aganglionic megacolon (the type associated with high white markings) to appear as late as this, from what I know - your boys are almost certainly fine. Hug

But at least you know to keep an eye on them. Do you knowh ow many other littermates there were?

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:07 am

Oh no, I'm so sorry. I sure hope you won't have to give him enema's often...I don't think I could have brought myself to do that to poor Willie...but we were lucky like Ratgoddess's Tatinka, in that Cisapride and helping the poo out worked for us. Willie could process his food ok, but just lacked the muscles there at the end (much like Tatinka) to get it out himself. But I could easily feel it there and would just help guide it out.

Cisapride REALLY helps.

I also hope you won't need to keep him isolated and that you are able to find a diet that works for him and the others can eat as well.

Please feel free to also PM me as I can provide you with the food info that worked for Willie.

Hang in there and best wishes to dear Simon.

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Debbie and the gang of spoiled furries

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:10 am

	LittleWillow wrote:
	. Do you knowh ow many other littermates there were?

Besides Little Bit, Gil, Simon, and Frisco, there were 9. Hopefully if Shanna finds this she'll tell the other adopters.

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Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:32 am

6 months? Shouldnt they be free and clear of MC? I have heard of late onset before but it is fairly uncommon isnt it? Shaz

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Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:35 am

It's probably worth contacting her if you can, and if Paula hasn't already - just, as you say, so she can warn the other adopters. Hopefully, by this stage, it's unlikely that any more of the litter will show up with problems - but it's always better to let them know to watch out for it.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:40 am

Aye Shaz - it's very uncommon for it to occur as late as that, but it's not the first time I've heard of it happening.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:43 am

Thank you all very much for your kind words of support. It is very helpful to have company.

Shaz, it's not common, from what I understand.

And I've been in touch with Shanna- she knows. Don't worry, amazing_rat- Frisco is so far completely FINE. Maybe Simon will be the only one. These ratties were from an accidental litter- Trinity wasn't meant to be bred- but her pedigree showed no MC problems in the line.

I am VERY VERY nervous about doing an enema myself. But if I need them, the vet's office is there to help. I am hoping the Cisapride will get him to the point that manipulation will help without enemas. But I will do my best. At this time, he literally cannot move his bowels AT ALL on his own. He gets obstructed fast, even on the mc diet, and he has loads of poop deep in the colon.

I love him SO much- he is the lickiest, sweetest rat ever. I discovered recently that I'm not good with skittish rescue rats...but I am going to try my best with this guy, who has been my little boy since he was a babe.

I really appreciate knowing you're here- thanks again. It's a good support system.

Love,
Paula

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:35 pm

Yes, I am aware of Simon's problems - Paula and I do keep close contact, so I have known from the start. But, since I have no actual experience with MC, Paula has been checking the forums for any information that can make her boy more comfortable.

Simon and Frisco, as well as Sara's Gildaro and Little Bit, are from an accidental litter here with my one and only High White girl, Trinity. Before we moved, I was fostering a small Fawn Berk Dumbo male, who escaped through the bars of his cage and got to her just before he was adopted. Trinity actually delivered her litter in my car during our 14 hr drive from GA to DE. There were 13 born, and all 13 survived.

Trinity is pedigreed, and I did ask her breeder about the other rats in her pedigree and was told that not one of them had any MC related problems - but even then, Trinity was never meant to be bred. She was only meant to be a pet....but accidents happen, and she did end up pregnant.

Once the litter made it to 4 weeks old, and everyone was fully weaned and there were no signs of MC in them, they went up for adoption. When I put them up for adoption, I did let the potential adopters know that this was an accidental litter from a High White. I also sent them information on MC and told then that while Trinity is not affected, and to the best of my knowledge none of her known relatives were, there was still a possibility for MC to show up. That did turn off a few of them, but others were okay with that.

When Paula first told me that Simon was having problems, I did send out an email to the adopters of this litter to see if they had any problems. All of them emailed me back to state that they were not having any problems with their rats from this litter. So, the other adopters do know about the situation.

Sara, you didn't recieve the first email about the MC possibility, since you adopted your boys when they were 3 months old - so I really didn't think it would be a problem for you. I did send you an email about Simon about 3 weeks ago, but I don't remember if I got a reply or not. I am sorry if you were unaware, as I was sure I did hear back from you. Confused

Simon is affected by late onset MC, which is pretty rare. As far as I know, he is the only one in the litter affected. I believe it started a little over a month ago, so Sara, if you haven't noticed any problems, you're boys should be just fine.

If anyone here has any information on management of MC, please go ahead and post it, PM or email Paula about it. I am trying to help any way I can, but I am very limited when it comes to MC. So, I am hoping we can find a solution here that will help Simon feel more like himself again. Crossed Fingers

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Shanna
~ Serendipity Rodentry ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:27 pm

Hi Shanna!

This morning, when I felt Simon and massaged him a bit, he didn't seem to have any poo waiting to come out. He has been acting completely fine aside from not being able to go on his own- and the liquidy diet is probably helping with that. He pees a TON. He is happy, playing, licking me. He is no longer puffed up, and he does not seem to be chewing on any of the clothes I am using as bedding, so he's not in pain as far as I can tell!

I let Frisco & Minna into his cage after playtime. They helped him eat his baby cereal with soft pears & peaches, and drink some Ensure & soy milk. And they can all cuddle together all day. I will remove any "other rattie" poop this evening and make sure the cage is clean, so I can tell if Simon manages to go at all.

The pharmacy should call today about the Cisapride. Best case scenario, it will help his gut contract enough that he can go on his own, or with just a bit of massage/poop pinching.

And Simon wants everyone to know that he is just TOO SEXY FOR LAB BLOCKS. I'm just making up the MC thing to cover for him. *feeling like cracking jokes is a good thing*

Crossed Fingers

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~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:08 pm

I might be a bit nervous about giving him Ensure. I believe it's dairy based and could cause him problems. Shrug

I did give Willie soymilk, but steared clear of dairy. He ate solid foods too, but we were very careful not to feed him hard-to-digest things like broccoli, corn and insoluable fiber. For Willie, soluable fiber helped. We regularly gave him canned kidney and pinto beans. Wille remained in the same cage with his buddies, but we always watched the lables on the cereals and grains used in the variation of Suebee's mix we made.

Babyfood was always something he received regularly too.

The Cisapride was what probably saved Willie's life. It's not a laxative (which can actually be bad for MC ratties), but moreso, helped with fecal mobility. It helped get that poo down there to where I was able to help it out for him.

Hang in there Simon!

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Debbie and the gang of spoiled furries

Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:39 pm

I'll check the Ensure label- should have done that before! I need to pick up some powdered soy infant formula to mix with the baby cereal. He is eating the Stage 2 baby food dinners as well, and gets soy milk.

At this point I am not doing any solids- I had actually tried the beans a couple of weeks ago because I read an old thread of yours! But even the beans, other grains, etc. seemed to cause problems. So we're sticking with the stuff above plus fresh watery fruits and occasional steamed, very soft low-fiber veggies.

Olive oil helped him for about a week or so, but stopped working. A bit of crushed Senokot does not seem to help; nor does mineral oil. Hope the Cisapride can get his colon contracting enough to push stuff through for him.

Thank you for the Ensure comment- it's amazing what you might overlook sometimes in your attempts to think of everything!

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~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:50 pm

I know in the UK you can get dairy free meal replacement products like Ensure, so even if Ensure has dairy in, then there should be a suitable alternative if you ask the pharmacist for some advice. It does appear, from the Ensure website, that the products contain both milk and soy, so if you want to avoid dairy, then Ensure probably isn't a good choice. Why was milk a bad idea, if you don't mind me asking Debbie? If it's the lactose intolerance risk, many of the meal replacement products are low lactose or lactose free, even if they contain milk proteins. If it's something about milk proteins themselves though, then that's not going to work.

Shanna - I remember that the litter was an oops litter, and I hope you don't think that I was suggesting that you're at fault in any way, or that you wouldn't care or consider it etc. Hug

I can only imagine that it's got to be hard on you as well as Paula, even though this wasn't planned or expected - to have genetic aganglionic megacolon start so late in life is - as you and Paula both said - very rare this late in life. I have heard of a couple of other cases of it happening this late in high white rats, but because they're born with the problem, rather than developing it after a certain amount of time, it's usually apparent within weeks of weaning. I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for expecting them to be safe once they've gone past a couple of months of age.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:08 am

I agree, Andy. I said that to Shanna, too. She is very conscientious and has admirably high standards. I was completely aware of this remote possibility before I adopted my boys, did my research, and I'm glad I suspected MC in time to start making changes to help Simon.

My Ensure bottle says it's lactose-free. I'll have to check into the milk proteins thing. Any opinions appreciated. I think I received the advice to give Ensure on another site- will check.

The stupid pharmacy didn't call today. I called the vet twice, and they called the pharmacy AGAIN and said I'd be hearing from them soon.

However...Simon is having a great day! I felt this morning and later- no poop to get out yet. And his brother & sister have been with him all day cuddling. It was so cute- after they all went into his cage together, Simon came back to the doorway and licked my hand as if to say thanks for the company. And then he popcorned around for a bit before going to sleep. Feelin' groovy.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:27 am

I would suspect that the lactose is probably the biggest issue - because it would increase bloating and wind - though it would also act as a natural lubricant (osmotic) laxative by drawing water into the gut if he's intolerant. It might be there's a reason to avoid milk proteins but I don't really know of one off the top of my head - the digestion is all done by the time it reaches the colon (where the problem is) and it's mainly water absorption and some bacterial activity that produces some vitamins. But hopefully Debbie can clarify it it's the lactose or the proteins that is the problem.

Glad to hear that he's feeling ok today - I know in humans, at least, after an enema, it can take a couple of days more than usual for a normal rhythmn to be resumed - simply because the entire colon tends to be washed out. I hope his good health lasts. I wonder if, perhaps, you could use something like glycerine? In severe constipation in humans, it's not uncommon to use glycerine suppositories to soften and lubricate impacted or dry faeces in the rectum when the patient is having difficulty passing it. It tends to work pretty well at softening things up and stimulating bowel contractions - while, if he's got no nerves in that last part of his bowel and rectum, he won't get the muscular contractions, it might at least make it more comfortable for you to ease it out if you could perhaps insert a sliver of glycerine suppository or liquid glycerine or some other lubricant, just a few minutes before you set to work on him? Of course, if he has no gut mobility at all, then that's probably less of a problem because the faeces isn't "there" waiting to be moved out. But it might, at least, help if you can get him to the point where he just needs some help evacuating.

Cisapride works by strengthening and stimulating bowel contractions - so hopefully, if most of his colon has the right nerves, this will ease some of the constipation and move the feces along so you can help him pass it - but if the nerves aren't in the gut wall, then I'm not sure that it would work on that part of the gut. Hopefully time will tell (and be positive!).

Just remember I haven't dealt with MC myself though - I'm just approaching this from a human side of dealing with chronic and severe constipation issues... but if you can give him an enema, I figure you can use the same kind of method to introduce some lubrication just into the rectum rather than deeper into the colon.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:55 am

I am so discouraged at this moment. Sad

How can he go from feeling as if he has no poop at his rectum opening to having a HUGE one there????? A huge HARD one???? I tried lubricating his anal opening with a bit of olive oil. And I tried DAMN hard to help him get it out. I pinched and massaged and pushed. But it's too big. He squeaked a bit at first, but I would catch him again and persist, and then when I tried the hardest, he squealed horribly in pain- and still it won't come out.

I feel like I have to emphasize here that I tried my heart out. This isn't me just saying I tried. I REALLY TRIED. I feel pretty stinking awful right now.

I haven't tried an enema here yet- he had the last one yesterday at 4:30ish at the vet. Obviously he needs one, but I absolutely cannot bring myself to cram the tube in there. I tried getting the stockinet on him for restraint- no luck. I know I am just inexperienced, but this is so painful emotionally and I am so scared to hurt him. And the poop is so large and hard that I am so afraid I'll tear him somehow.

He is active, seems happy, wanted to be ON me and lick me and forget about the whole thing. If only, sweet Simon.

I will call the vet first thing in the a.m. If I need to go in for the fourth time, I will go in. I don't know what I'll do if the Cisapride & other stuff doesn't help enough in combination, to both move the poops along AND soften his poops so I CAN manipulate them out.

Damn. Sad

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:24 am

OK I haven't had the experience with MC you have, and I don't know if any of this will help, but I do understand your fear ok? It's perfectly understandable, but I think you'll manage fine ok? This is the first time you've had to do this at home, but you'll cope. The fact that the poop is getting to his rectum is hopefully a great sign - he has enough motility in his colon that it gets there eventually even if it takes time and it's very dried out. If it can get there, without backing up and distending his colon (which is where the cisapride and you helping him comes in) then he will manage ok.

This is a hard thing to do - I can understand that. Sometimes humans need similar help - sometimes, they also need a nurse or someone to actually manually help pass the poop when they're very impacted. And it is possible that you might cause a little bleeding (the lining of the rectum has a lot of blood vessels and bleeds very easily) but if you are gentle, you should avoid a fissure (a split in the anus) - especially when you start on the cisapride.

Try to calm yourself down a bit if you can - if you're stressed and anxious, he's going to pick up on that too. You can try warming him a little - a warm bath often helps in humans to relax them. Or anything else that chills him out - scritches, etc.

Try massaging the perenium - the area between his anus and penis - and over his bottom - if he'll let you; that might help to soften things up a little, especially if you can get some oil onto the poop itself. Then, really, it's just a time thing.... I know it sounds gross, but bottoms can stretch to surprising sizes. The main thing is to take it sloooooooooooowly. If you need to do the enema, then I have every confidence in your ability to do it - and even if you can't manage it this time, I know you'll manage it the next time, or the one after that.

You can do this, hun. I promise you can do it. Hug

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:45 am

Sorry to hear about Simon. I hope everything goes well for you. What a scary scary disease.... Sad

Also
Sorry to sound completely oblivious (hey I only just found out what mega colon was like a week ago O_O) but one of the symptoms is poo backed up?

Can you tell the difference between a backed up mega colon rat and a rat that is just holding some poo in on his own?

..and this is late onset mega colon...what are the other symptoms?

I'm just a bit curious because I have a boy who always has 4 or so hardish turds backed up in his bottom that I will usually help out. They just seem to pile on up in there

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<3 to my Fats and my Meeces

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:08 am

We had a couple of recent posts that had lots of info on differentiating between the two (constipation and the odd huge poo vs megacolon) - if you hit search up the top and just enter megacolon, it should return a few useful threads, particularly recently.

Megacolon is basically where the gut, for whatever reason, cannot move poop through properly. It might be mild, so that the poo just takes way too long to move through, and so becomes very dry and hard in the process, but medications and diet can help. In severe cases, there is severe abdominal bloating, huge poos, constipation, perhaps intermittent diarrhoea (as poop liquifies and leaks out, or poop stained mucus does, from behind impacted poop).

The severity of the symptoms often depends on the cause - megacolon can occur randomly, for no known reason. It can occur in (usually older) rats due to injury to the spine or abdomen or nerves, or perhaps a stroke. But it's most often seen linked to the high white markings in the US. The only difference between early onset megacolon and late onset megacolon is this case is that more usually it develops in the first few weeks after weaning (so usually by 8 weeks or so) but in some cases, the milder cases, it's delayed until several months of age. It's the same cause (the high white markings meaning there are nerves missing in the gut) but for whatever reasons, the disease has been mild enough that symptoms haven't appeared until the rat is a bit older. So they're the same, symptoms wise, as the early onset MC symptoms - but often the disease is less severe, so the bloating may be absent or less severe at first, or come on more slowly.

Rats generally don't "hold in" poop voluntarily - or at least not for long periods of time. I don't know if rats will do what some children do - if they have found it painful to poop because of constipation, they may hold on because of fear of the pain, which just makes the poop get harder and you get a vicious cycle.

How long have you been helping it out - and how precisely are you helping it out? If he is unable to poop at all on his own (i.e. you always have to help him go) then I would say that isn't normal at all - whether that's down to megacolon or some other problem like constipation or not, I can't say but it's certainly not normal to have to help him poop regularly. If you don't help him, will he pass it on his own?

It's also rather normal for rats to store several poop pellets in the rectum at once - they always seem to produce at least 3 raisins at a time. Megacolon poop is huge - like they've all smooshed together into one huge poop log - or so Debbie (our resident MC expert tells me).

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:50 am

His poo isnt smooshed together. Its just really hard..but normal pellet size :/

I usually help him out atleast once a day. I rub around where I can feel the poop to sort of ease it out. If there are too many in there though I usually have to pinch them out one by one.

Im pretty sure he can do it on his own or atleast some.. I just dont know if he is having trouble or what... I just checked him. He had a few stored in there that I had to pop out but he also had some dried on his toosh like he might have had diareah ..which is odd since his poop is so hard.

He is nearing a year old (or somewhere around that Im not entirely sure) so mega colon doesnt seem plausable...?

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<3 to my Fats and my Meeces

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:04 am

I was actually very calm when I tried to help Simon. I was proud of that part, at least. I waited to freak out until I got here.

Thank you for the advice and the confidence in me- but I don't feel confident right now. If I had another person to hold him, it would help. But I don't. My husband still doesn't even feel comfortable having them ON him, let alone holding one of them down.

If I had the absolute thinnest needle in the universe, and some instant poop dissolver, this would feel more possible. And did I mention that he is the world's squirmiest rat? I will have to try the stockinet again.

I am not ready to give up. But I would like to scream, really loud.

Rouge- sometimes, when the anus is distending from trying to push out a hard poop, some soft poop can squeeze out around it. That's probably what's happening when you see what appears to be diarrhea.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:31 am

Rouge - aye, like Paula says. Either that or excess mucus or liquifying poop can leak out past as well. It might be worth increasing the fibre in his diet and making sure he's drinking plenty of fluids and perhaps offer him high fluid foods as well. You shouldn't have to help him out like that (at least not regularly) and if he really is having persistant problems it's worth getting him checked. While typical megacolon of the type associated with high white markings is unlikely in his case, there are other causes of slowing of the gut and other types of megacolon. It may well be that there's no real problem, or he simply could do with some more fibre and fluids in his diet.

Paula - I really hope that didn't come across patronising or anything - I know if it had been me, I'm not sure that I wouldn't be getting stressed.... I know I did trying to trim Charlie's teeth in the last few months of his life - every time we had to do it, I was terrified he'd end up having a heart attack or seizure or stroke because he hated it so much, and he kept trying to shove his paws or tongue between the snips..... Shocked

He wriggled so much that half the time even between us he'd wriggle so much we couldn't do the job. Then I'd ger frustrated and upset, and that seemed to make him worse as well. I will keep everything crossed that your hubby can get to a point where he feels comfortable enough to help you manage him. But I do have confidence in you, even if you don't right now. And feel free to shout and scream here (or go and bury your face into a pillow and scream into that.....

I wish that I was closer to you (like same country or continent would help!) - if I was closer, I'd be over in a shot to help you sort him out. I really think it might be an idea to ask about the glycerine thing.... It works well to soften human poop, even during impaction. I'll take a look and see if I can find anything that is worth talking to the vet about, it you want.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:57 am

Okay, I just tried again, and it was an awful experience. I was calm. I gave him love. Then I tried to get him in the Stockinet. He wriggled out. I tried again. Got it around his neck. He freaked and whipped around and tried to bite me. I screamed instinctively (can't help it- I'm one of those screamers) and slammed my knee so hard into the floor I thought I broke my kneecap. Then every time I tried to take the Stockinet off him, he tried to bite me. Finally got it off. Then tried using a medicine syringe to squirt some mineral oil into his butt. Tried several times. Thought it worked. Have no idea. We both hugged and kissed and cuddled for a few minutes, and now he is running around, licking mineral oil off his sore butt. And I feel like a complete failure.

Andy, I just rehomed two foster rats I'd planned to adopt because they were skittish, and I am deathly afraid of rat bites. It took me forever, last fall, to even be able to let my two MICE crawl onto my HAND. I was sweating and hyperventilating when I tried to do it. To get to the point where I can kiss and hold and love ratties was major. I will be honest and say that their unpredictability scares me. And if I ever did get a rat bite, I'm afraid it would change me enough that I would not want rats. So I guess there's a lot of baggage that some folks might not have. I am not naturally relaxed around rats.

I swear, if I can find a way to help him I will do my best. This is hard for me- and I am most hard on myself. I feel extreme guilt already that I have not been able to just take the bull by the horns and get the job done.

You were not patronizing. I'm just struggling with my own issues as well as with Simon.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:38 am

Wow Paula, you get the high five for hanging in there and trying, although I know that's the only option for a lover of rats. I know what you mean about having to do it alone--I am single and have no friends willing to hold rats for anything, but I'm sorry you can't have help nonetheless, especially when you probably want to run screaming. I'd be popping a xanax about now. You are trying your best and your best will probably get better and better as your tolerance rises to meet this particular problem. I noticed that with my first rat/respiratory/syringe feeding experience. I just want to wish you luck and send you and Simon healing pooping vibes. What a great forum where people can talk about this stuff and get help. and praise to you Shanna for clarifying everything and being so open. Paula, I know giving up isn't an option. I think with the vet's help, somehow you will find a routine that works for you and Simon.
Angela

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:14 am

I wish I knew how to make this a easier for you. I can only try to reassure you and I'm afraid that will sound empty because you're dealing with an issue that I've never dealt with, and the last thing I want is to a) make you feel bad, even indirectly, or b) come across patronsing, not understanding or as if I were to be sweeping your concerns under the carpet. So I'll try my best, and please bear with me if I do get it wrong.

First off - you're not a failure. I can only imagine how nervewracking the whole process must be; you're trying to adjust to the diagnosis anyway, you're trying to deal with the fear you have over the bites, you're still (I bet) feeling bad about rehoming the foster rats, you're still very new to the whole rat thing and so far you're feeling like everything is going wrong, you can't get things right and that you're failing him and failing yourself and that you're simply not meeting the standard for a good ratty mom. You may well feel that if it was anyone else, they'd just have got over it and have done it by now. You said yourself, when you rehomed the foster pair "I wanted so much to be like most of you... But I've failed."

You didn't fail then, and you haven't failed now. Please try to believe that. I know it's hard but I think we've all felt that way in the past. I know for sure I have (and still do sometimes). No-one is harder on me than I am, and no-one ever could be, I don't think. I judge myself so harshly at times and yes, there are times when I feel like a complete failure - because so many of my rats got sick before they were 1 and died by 18 months. Because I couldn't save Bart when he stopped breathing, because I couldn't stop Zaphod's abscess spreading and killing him, because Charlie fought me like a demon when his teeth needed trimming instead of it being a quick process, because despite the fact that I am very experienced with lancing abscesses, I haven't been able to bring myself to do it on a rat, even when it needs doing.

To be honest, the very thought of having to give one of my guys an enema isn't something I really think I'd be comfortable doing. I'd find it traumatic, I'd be petrified about doing it wrong and hurting them badly, making them painful, making things worse.... You've found yourself in a situation where you understandably don't feel that you're coping very well - but honestly, I think you're doing great. You've not fallen to bits, you're continuing to try, even though it's traumatic for you and/or Simon, you've done loads of research - You are FAR from a failure.

And if you don't get the enema this time - you've said yourself you'll get some more help from the vet on the subject. And like I said - I have every faith that you can do this - and I know damn well you're giving it your best and that's no more than anyone else could ask for. You're giving Simon the chance of life that, in most cases, he wouldn't ever have got. If it works out, then fantastic.... but please try to hang onto the fact that you're doing something very special that a lot of people would find difficult to live with and deal with. You're doing the best you can for him - and that's all that anyone can do. Hug

As to the oil enema... hopefully that helped him. I found an article on ratguide about giving enemas - I assume that's one you've already seen (based on Woody's life with megacolon) so now I have a better idea of how it's done. I'd be anxious about it too - even if logically I know what the body is capable of. And yes... I have to admit, I'd be nervous about getting bitten as well.

One thing I did spot - seeing as how he hates the stockinette for restraint - is that this article suggested using a conforming bandage as a resraint - wrap it around their upper torso and forearms (but not tight enough to cause breathing problems of course) so I don't know if perhaps that would be a possible option to consider.

Hopefully you wil have got enough oil into him to help soften things up... I did find an article about megacolon in cats so I'll see if I can come up with any other crazy ideas though I imagine the people who have already dealt with MC have already considered most or all of them anyway.

Keep faith in yourself hun - you're doing a great job with him - he's happy and licky (even if he has a sore botton now) and he's doing well so far - and that's down to you giving him a suitable diet, getting him the right vet care and loving him the way you do. Considering that you are very new to rats and you're dealing with other issues with them anyway, I'd say you should be proud of everything you've done, not feel like a failure.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:50 pm

That was a very kind message, Andy. I appreciate that you take the time to really talk- you make such a difference to people here. Thank you for being a friend (and thanks, Angela & everyone else).

I just checked on him- his butt isn't looking so great. More distention. A couple of barely visible now-dried squirts of poop came out during the night, but that's it. I don't think I got any mineral oil IN there.

I have another bandage wrap- tried to get that on him, too. I can't wrap it tightly enough to do the trick before he wildly squirms out. I've had moderate success with a towel.

Didn't sleep well. Going to call vet as soon as they open. May have to take my 5-yr-old in with me if we have to go in this morning as opposed to this afternoon.

I keep thinking what Angela said- there's GOT to be a way for me (specifically me, with my issues) to DO this. I keep trying to have faith in the process I trust- that after enough jumping in & flailing around, things start to make sense, and you find your way.

We saw a magician the other day. He was able to twist a fork neck around while my husband held the fork. Maybe I can hire him to get Simon's opening open, simply using his mind. Maybe he can teach me.

Edit after vet: They did an enema this morning- he actually pooped a huge poop right before the exam room, probably from stress. Maybe the mineral oil I possibly did get inside his butt helped after all.

I called the pharmacy myself and the peanut-butter flavored Cisapride will arrive tomorrow or Monday.

I will try to check frequently to massage anything soft out- and if he gets backed up fast again and I need help, the vet's office is open tomorrow until 12:00.

Best case scenario is that after a week or two the Cisapride will help enough to help ME manage him at home. If I had four hands, I could do it.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:20 am

Glad to hear he's feeling a bit better now - I think you probably did get some oil in there. From what I read, it helps if you can massage the area under his tail before inserting the oil, then afterwards to help soften things up.

Like Angela says - you'll find a way that works best for you and Simon. I was talking about Simon with my flatmate, and he said "When I think how much they struggle trying to get medicine in the mouth end, I'm not surprised they struggle when you try to get it in the other end." - which is a good point. Most everyone has had a fight on their hands trying to get Baytril (usually) into a rat that really doesn't want to take it. But in the vast number of cases, we find a way to do it. I believe that the same will turn out true with Simon and you - I wish I could tell you now how to do it, but it may just be that you need a little time for things to click into place.

I've seen a couple of references (not just with rats) to using senna and cisapride at the same time to stimulate the gut to contract.... but I wonder if an osmotic laxative (like lactulose) which draws water into the colon along the way might be something to consider. Perhaps lactulose along with the cisapride - so the cisapride encourages the gut to get things moving, while the lactulose helps to keep things soft and moist, without adding the bulk that things like fibre would. Does that sound like a workable idea to people with much more experience/knowledge than me?

I know that in larger animals, megacolon can be effectively cured by surgery to remove the faulty part of the gut... but obviously rats are so small... and I suspect that it may be impossible or considered impossible to do that kind of surgery on them. Sad

Hopefully, though, Paula - whatever way, you'll find a way to keep his poop soft enough that you can just help him go with some massage. I'm keeping everything crossed and I hope you can get him on a comfortable regime soon. Hug

and

for both of you - be gentle to yourself and give him a smooch for me. If I could lend you my hands, I would.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:27 am

	CricketSong wrote:
	I just checked on him- his butt isn't looking so great. More distention. A couple of barely visible now-dried squirts of poop came out during the night, but that's it. I don't think I got any mineral oil IN there.

If no one has stated this before (I've become lost in all the poop talk), those diarrhea squirts are liquid stool that is able to bypass the blockage. Unfortunately, it doesn't help. Sad

That's why I find laxatives to be rather useless. I gave up on Senekot. It may soften stuff behind the blockage, but does nothing for it. And the laxative didn't seem to work very well either.

Did you get to talk to Bella, Paula?
Crossed Fingers

for the weekend!!

_________________
Karinka
Stop by and see StellaLuna Rattery
www.stellalunarattery.com

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:55 am

Yeah, we are covered in poop here, aren't we? I actually just told Angela earlier about what the tiny squirts of poop mean. And Senokot does nothing for Simon either.

Andy, I've heard lactulose mentioned too. Something to keep in mind.

Before I went to take a nap (oh blessed sleep), Frisco was trying to bite through his cage bars to get to Simon's baby food, so I went downstairs to the sink and scraped out the rest to give to him & Minna, lol.

Off to work now, and the store for more Ensure.

Thanks for being here. Group hug?

Love,
Paula

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:53 am

Senokot (despite the references I've seen to it) probably doesn't help because it works by stimulating the nerves to contract and relax the muscle of the gut... but the problem is that the nerves aren't there, so bits stay contracted, and then the poop tends to build up behind that area and cause the dilation of the colon (the mega bit of the name).

Really, at the moment, there's two aspects to megacolon management, from what I've researched:
1) getting him to a point where stool gets to the rectum soft so that it's easier to manage on a day to day basis.
2) softening hard stool that's already in the gut so that you can get it out with as little problem as possible.

The oil, enemas and massage/manipulation go towards step 2, while things like cisapride, laxatives and diet go towards step 1. Trouble is finding things that work best in each case, while also remembering that many things won't work in megacolon.

Like Karinka says, just softening stuff behind the hard poop in the rectum won't help to clear that (though it may help prevent it happening again in the future).

Laxatives fall into several groups.
a) osmotic laxatives - like lactulose. They work by putting something into the gut that draws fluid out into the stool rather than reabsorbing it. It's also the reason that lactose intolerant people have problems with diarrhoea, because when they can't break down the lactose, it remains in the gut and draws water into the stool.
b) irritant laxatives - like senna. They work by irritating the gut, or stimulating it to contract harder and more often. Because stool is forced through the gut quicker, the colon can't absorb as much water, and so the stool is more liquid.
c) lubricant laxatives - like mineral oil. They work by coating or softening stool in the gut so that it's easier for the gut to push it through.
d) bulking laxatives - like bran fibre. They work by bulking out the stool and stretching the colon, so that the muscles contract more and find it easier to push the stool along. Something like Fybogel also has an osmotic component to it, as soluble fibre also draws a lot of water into the stool as well as bulking it out.

The way I see it with megacolon - irritant laxatives may be of a little help, but probably not enough (it won't do anything to help the atonic area of gut with no nerves), and may cause pain and problems in the area behind it if there is a large build up of poop. Bulking laxatives again, are not going to be a good idea if you're trying to keep up with a low residue diet. However, something like psyllum husk might be an option if you find that soluble fibre helps rather than worsens the problem because it's soft and jelly like and draws a lot of moisture into the stool. Lubricating laxatives like mineral oil may help to move things through the gut, but used long term orally, they can prevent the absorption of some nutrients, so probably shouldn't be used long term if something else can help. Osmotic laxatives pass through unchanged on the whole, so you have the benefit of not putting any drugs into the system. You have to make sure they drink plenty (and you can stimulate that with sweetened water and very liquid diets etc) for them to work well and to prevent dehydration, but they don't rely on the gut having the nerves, so I would imagine that these kinds of laxatives are probably the most useful.... though I certainly bow to the experience of people who have dealt with this in rats - I can only offer these thoughts from a human point of view.

Anyway - I'll shut up for now.

Group Hug

all around Paula. Hug

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:39 am

I'm sorry I haven't been able to keep up with the posts....so please forgive me if I state something already mentioned.

If I remember right Senekot was NOT a good idea.

I found it became very easy to help Willie poo after he got the hang of the ritual. I would just hold him on my shoulder with his face pointing over my shoulder facing behind me and his hind end out front with his tail pointing downward, I would have my left hand on his back, giving him pets and scritches....and with my right hand, feel under his tail and just guide the poo out. After some time, I could tell he was trying to help me, even though he totally relied on me for the 'work'.

Bella is a great resource. Her boy Woody lived to be 19 months old with MC. She had to feed him a much more liquid diet than we did Willie.

_________________
Debbie and the gang of spoiled furries

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:36 am

Isn't there anything that could be given to the rat to make him relaxed and sleepy before attempting the rear end business? Like the stuff in benadryl? or something herbal? I can't imagine trying to give my rats an enema. I keep thinking, if a vet can learn it, I can learn it, and try and get confidence with treating the animals that way, but I know it must seem horribly difficult right now. You may become an expert. I have an elderly bunny (>11) that is needing more and more special care and I too feel like a failure when I read what other people accomplish (wheelchair carts, cleaning ears, cleaning rears, physical therapy, massage, etc. etc.). There is a lot to learn and it seems overwhelming at first. My project this weekend is to spend more time learning how to care for his new special needs. I'll be checking here to see how you are doing with Simon, as will your other friends here. Sounds like Debbie and others found something that worked for them, and maybe once Simon figures out what is going on, he will be working with you more than fighting you or squirming. I don't know anything about it, but maybe working with him the same time once or twice a day might help, so he knows what to expect, and with some sort of treat after? I find that they do respond to lots of excited praise as much as food treats. Wishing you strength and courage and for Simon, squishy poo.
Angela

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:09 pm

Thank you! We are having a good morning. Last night he did seem to hold still much more calmly for gentle massage and poop pinching (got a bit of soft stuff out). I think he is learning that I am trying to help. And guess who is right now squirting poop onto his cage towels? I do think maybe he had a bit too much mineral oil- some of the poop looks exactly like baby food, but some is the normal brown "had time to get through the system and leave some nutrition" poop.

I know I should be careful with the amount of mineral oil. If I can find just enough of a bit to add to his food to make things really soft but not make things squirt out before they give him nutrients...

I am trying a baby nasal aspirator to gently squirt some oil onto/hopefully into his butt. It's soft and much easier to control than a medicine syringe. I also have a soft rubber-bulb type medicine syringe for kids.

Well, I may have erred too much on the side of squirtiness last night/this morning, but he won't need any hard poop pinched out, or an enema.

I'll be thinking of you and your bunny, Angela. Best wishes! Feel free to PM me and vent or shout your success (gosh, I can't even hear "vent" anymore without thinking of poop. And the word "constitution" was on the TV screen the other day and I thought it said "constipation.")

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket