How about a A rat truffle hunt???

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:07 am

I was in a rather lively debate about floor space and a comment was made that made me think about the 18” of wasted space in my tank…. (Thanx – LW)

I want to try something and I don’t know if it will cause any issues.

I would like to first experiment with some strong smelling cheese “truffles”. Find out what they like.

On cage cleaning day when the tank is bare fill the tank with about 6 - 8” of very lightly packed peat moss,

Then take small portions of the favorite cheese and randomly “hide” the “truffles” by poking them down with your finger then covering them with dirt.

Does anybody know of ay rat / peat moss issue???

If it’s an all clear I want to try it.
It should not only thrill the rats but I am guessing it will help keep tank smells down too.

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:04 am

There is a link to a similar digging box on Ratbehavior.org and they do enjoy digging boxes. The only real issue would be using soil that contains chemicals or could have parasites and other potential icky critters. If the soil is free of those (not necessarily sterile, but not exposed to, say, visits from wild rodents) then the only real concern I'd have would be potential collapse of the soil on top of them if it's too wet or too crumbly and the resultant trapping or inability for them to find their way out. Because I assume the tank sides are firmly fixed together you may want to be sure you can easily get to them should an underground emergency occur.... but no - they love digging boxes and those are the only real issues I can think of.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:08 am

My digging box is about 14" x 9" with 6" deep side walls!
I just set the whole thing in the bottom of the cage and they have soooo much fun!
Their tails are really dirty though! heheheheeee!

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:37 am

Come on guys you should now by now....

It wont be a "digging box"
It will be the WHOLE BOTTOM OF THE CAGE!!!!

*read that last part like you're introducing a ROCK STAR!!!!
You know pump your fist, mabey even flicker the lights...

So what is the better "soil" to use. The only reason why i thought of peat was from when i had a scorpion. Is there something better?

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:03 am

JBC...
I got that you want to do the entire bottom of your cage...

You are Braver than I am!!! LOL! I guess you would have to decide how long it could go
without being dumped out...whats a good guess?? 2 weeks? I dunno?
Just throwing an idea out there. I bought potting soil at WalMart....the kind that has no additives in it.
It is really inexpensive too. Sorry I dont have the bag I threw it out already....but it was the store brand.

If I were you...and did decide to try it, I would take your water/rock area and use that for food.
I mean they are going to most likely bury some food anyways....but at least they could have some fresh available too. I left the dog box inside the cage for 4 days and they had so much fun...only thing now is the dirty tails. I think they will clean them....if not in a few days I could give them a little tail wash...just the tail, I not so sure I agree with giving rats baths.
Call me crazy....but rolling in the dirt is a bath in my eyes for rodents.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:44 am

Dawn - If you don't mind the mess. Fill your tub up to about rat knee deep (at the deep end) and let them loose. They go nuts....

As for how long???? I have no clue, was planning on smell/sight more than time frame. In the maze post (i have reread that thing about 10 times) LW made a comment about the 18" of wasted space and that i should drop a shelf down 2/3 of the way. Again rereading that thread the most polite "flame war" ever the digging thing came up, and as i watched the rats play in the race track i noticed the way they are acting in the middle (like they where under ground). And it hit me they can go up all they want. They can only go down about 2-3”. So what the heck…

The terrerium – NOW that is gunna rock….
I hope I can get the filtration right. I want to be able to put gold fish or guppies in it with them.

I have a spare 20 gal long tank I want to use for it. Thinking 2/3 land 1/3 water. W/water fall and stream..

My plans are to build a topper for the tank and junction so it can doc with the Lion‘s Den (it’s not a rat cage any more). Hang some heavy black canvas between cages and set a grow light on a timer over the terrarium. It should be like being able to wake up and go outside anytime they want to…

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:59 am

Aye - generally rats do perfectly well bathing themselves with their tongues. If they like water, and are happy playing in it, then that's good also (pea fishing, swimming bowls etc) but generally there's no need to wash them down with soap and water unless they've really got into something nasty that they won't, or would be dangerous, to wash off with their tongues. The only other real exception to that is if they're not washing themselves well due to age, illness, or occasionally when they have really grotty tails - but then it often is possible to keep them dapper with a wipe down with a damp cloth or pet safe wipe.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:03 am

	Quote:
	I hope I can get the filtration right. I want to be able to put gold fish or guppies in it with them.

JBC - I don't know if you already know this, but rats can, and will, hunt and kill small fish and birds. Just so as you know... I know some people think it's ok to let them hunt fish, but a lot of folk here feel the same way about that as live feeding rodents to herps as well. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:06 pm

Thank you

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:12 pm

Just in case…
I was not talking bout full on “soap and water” bath…
Just a tub full of water and sum critters…

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:32 pm

LW - After thinking about it a bit (your cave in comment)...
I may have an idea for a dig box that is safe (call it cave in proof) but everybit as fun and the mess is optional...

Will post pix, results, and cost when i am done

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:10 am

Wow, JBC you have some really creative ideas...I have read all your posts, and about how you like having your rats in a "natural enviroment" and I think its pretty cool!! Your rats must love it, but don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss, and even live things such as fish, harm your rats? I'm not saying I disagree with you, but couldn't these things carry parasites and such? Also, feeding live fish to your rats, as Andy said (LW) is basically the same as feeding live rodents to reptiles, and I am against that (as most people here are).

Don't get me wrong, I think that a lot of your ideas are very creative.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:12 am

Soil, for a digging or tunnelling box, is fine, as long as you get it from a source that is free from nasties. I believe the soils you can get from garden centres is generally sterilized or only innoculated with soil bacteria that generally don't cause illnesses - the real problem would be exposing rats to soil from sources that might be contaminated with animal feces (and potentially harmful organsims and parasites) and which wild rodents could come into contact with.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:11 am

Littlerattie - Thank you for your response but please forgive me, I don’t believe that you actually have read any of my posts – scanned possibly but not read. The injustice of scanning can be when you stop because you read something you don’t like, or don’t want to read and discredit the rest of the post or idea. I hope that is not what you are doing.

Please take this reply as a direct response to your questions with some explanation and detail of my situation. Understand I am challenging the over all idea of the current “Toy” concept and am taking your comments - as I feel they would be quite typical for the board and the hobby as a whole – and replying to them, I am not challenging you or upset with you in anyway.

LR - “but don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss, and even live things such as fish, harm your rats?” – In response to your question as it pertains to the topic at hand, Yes, I do. This concern was the driving factor behind the original post, and due to the above question I would assume you missed these

- "Does anybody know of ay rat / peat moss issue??? "
- "So what is the better "soil" to use. The only reason why I thought of peat was from when I had a scorpion. Is there something better?" - Just in case - Emperor Scorpions burrow so typically peat is used for bedding - it sold at pet shops, it is clean, and its also kind of shapeable.

Also, I don’t know that I said I was going to feed my rats fish – I did not feel the need to expand on this, I just acknowledged the point made with a simple thank you and continued with the topic at hand.

Also just in case, please don’t confuse natural with natural toys (rope / dirt / live food ect.) – See I am working on getting my rats into a more natural state of mind – they where VERY unstable and unsocial when I got them. I do not have access to a breeder at this time so all of these rats came from the pet store and it shows. Since I have started down this path they are starting stabilize mentally and physically with any luck I may even be able them take out of the cage – soon I hope.

The hammock thing was meet with a resounding “WTF… is this..”
I mean yea they hid in the hideout I had mounted at the top of the cage, and if the rats I have currently where from a breeder, I would have assumed “awwww look they like it” but with these rats I knew that was not the case.

You could say I took the “if you love them let them go” approach with out actually letting them go. With the changes I saw after only one week I was left to ask the question: Are we as a hobby actually enriching the in-cage lives of the rats we keep with the toys we give them? After all when they are out of the cage they are the cutest little balls-of-fur ever, when they are put back in the cage they are nothing more than a caged animal in need of something to do (how much cage time does your rats get? And How do they spend that time?).

Having an understanding of a rat’s intellect and ability to learn leads me to believe that we are not. A quick trip to the pet store should confirm this as well. - I challenge anybody here to find a toy that will keep your rat entertained mentally, at best you will find bastardized hamster toys (balls, wheels etc.) or ferret toys with the words “Pet Rats” haphazardly thrown onto the side of the box (if you are really lucky it may even have a pic of a rat on it). Most of these “toys” from the stores, they get bored with within an hour, or two at the most. So again I had to ask how effective was that $15.00 that I just spent? And was it really spent on the rat or because it is “just-so-cute” and I thought it looked nice?

If I apply the same logic to of all of the “toys” I give my rats that they enjoy and use (Approx $16.00 worth of rope and about $35.00 of 4” drainage tile and a small parrot ladder and I don’t remember the cost) I am seeing the following from my investment:

- I see the new-toy-in-the-cage type activity the entire time they are awake.
- I get a level of intensity that I have never seen from any rat I have ever kept or been around, at food time (think holy $#(% I just won the lottery).
- I see the physical abilities of the animals that hammocks and the like don’t bring out (balance, jumping, lighting speed, etc.)
- The best part about all of this, I do not see an end in sight, it is only getting better.

Compared to the $45.00 worth of colorful but worthless pet shop toys that they had access to, the difference is night and day, I guess with all the anecdotal info I didn’t feel the need to re-ask that question, I knew the answer.

I am sorry but I think I have stumbled onto a major discrepancy in the hobby.

- The hobby as a whole needs to ask some hard questions of themselves as a collective group like the zoo’s did some time back (I am 33 years old and I can see major differences in how the animals where kept then to now; as can most adults).
- I also think the hobby is - unintentionally - not keeping the best mental interest of the rats that they keep in mind when they design a cage or cage toys for rats.

It is getting better - heck, I can remember many odd looks at the pet store when I was asked what I was feeding when I bought a rat and I gave them my answer - but it is not even close to where it needs to be.

I gave my rats some options (the wild or a hammock), I am building what my rats are happiest with – The irony here is that it is the human side of this discussion that is having the most issues with this apparent radical idea of letting a rat be a rat when they are in the cage. The bigger irony is the group of humans with the issue – after all, all I have ever advocated was to give your rats the options and see what happens.

Ultimately, I let my rats go and they are currently on their way back to me.

So in closing - “don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss… harm your rats?” – In the bigger picture of rat psychology I have only one answer to give, ABSOLUTLY NOT!!!!!!

So my challenge is simple, did you really read this or did I loose you somewhere at the beginning? If I lost you, the way I see it your rats are lost too.

And that bugs me,
JBC

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:12 am

LW – After reading some of these comments (cave in / Dirty tails / parasites) about the digging box I decided to skip the whole soil option and work on one that will be safe (cave in proof) and clean (no soil to kick out). I will post details when it is done.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:36 am

	jonnyboxcutter wrote:
	Littlerattie So my challenge is simple, did you really read this or did I loose you somewhere at the beginning? If I lost you, the way I see it your rats are lost too. And that bugs me, JBC

I think you took my post a little too seriously...I just had a question and you turned it into an insult or something...
Saying that my rats are "lost" is a little hurtful...everyone here loves their ratties, and spoils them, and that includes me. Just because my views aren't exactley aren't like yours doesn't mean I'm wrong, we can all have our own opinions...

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:41 am

LR- Thank you for making my point

JBC

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:52 am

I didn't mean that I was "lost", I see your point. But my rats live on hammocks and "colorful petstore toys", so basically, to my understanding, you see my rats as "lost". My rats love their lives, I see it in their shining eyes, and active lively personalities, and when I look at them I can't believe that someone would see them as "lost".
I like your theories, and I'll have to try some of them out, I just don't see why you have to be so against people who give their rats hammocks. Confused

Sorry, I'm rambling again. Embarassed

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:54 am

JBC - does it have to be an either/or situation? Many rats love hammocks, igloos whatever. Are they somehow precluded because they're not stimulating enough - or are they also useful as resting spots, stashing spots, things to break falls, extra hanging out spots?

The soil explanation was more for little ratty, to explain that not all soil is harmful.

And I know you feel strongly about it, but please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please - on all sides. Let's not have anything descend into nastiness in Ratpalace's last week.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:01 am

Thank you Andy.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:02 am

LR - I think the point he's trying to make is - can we make their in cage time even better for them than we already do... Like, a rat might appear to be ok living alone, but we know they prefer being in pairs or groups. Some people still feel that it's ok to regularly (as opposed to those rats who don't get on with others) keep rats alone even though they'd be happier with a buddy. They might be ok in a cage with minimal stimulation, but could we make them even happier by stimulating them even more? And do we have to spend a lot of money on things to do it? Can we improve rat toys and cages above and beyond what we already give them?

Though I don't think it fair to assume that everyone just dumps in a hammock, igloo and food bowl. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:06 am

LW - "please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please" Please point to anything i have posted on this forum that leads you to this comment? I dont know that I have.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:10 am

"does it have to be an either/or situation?" absolutly NOT!!!!

"LR - I think the point he's trying to make is - can we make their in cage time even better for them than we already do... Like, a rat might appear to be ok living alone, but we know they prefer being in pairs or groups. Some people still feel that it's ok to regularly (as opposed to those rats who don't get on with others) keep rats alone even though they'd be happier with a buddy. They might be ok in a cage with minimal stimulation, but could we make them even happier by stimulating them even more? And do we have to spend a lot of money on things to do it? Can we improve rat toys and cages above and beyond what we already give them?" - All of this is what i am talking about

"Though I don't think it fair to assume that everyone just dumps in a hammock, igloo and food bowl" - I dont think I said this...

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:21 am

I didn't say you had - I simply expressed my desire that no-one did. As I said - keep it nice on ALL sides. I actually posted that right at the beginning but you two replied a whole lot of times while I was typing it up. So it wasn't aimed at you specifically, but everyone in general.

Glad that I understand where you're coming from. It's not necessarily saying that things are terrible but can we make it even better for them.... but as long as it's clear that is what it is - not an accusation or a judgement, but looking at ways to improve things and discussing them.

And I was being a little flippant with that last remark, hence the wink

- but you never did ask about how my cages are set up and as it happens, many of the things you do or have suggested I've tried variations of past and present - though limits are sometimes in place with poorly or old or weak rats that preclude certain things.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:25 am

"I didn't say you had - I simply expressed my desire that no-one did. As I said - keep it nice on ALL sides. I actually posted that right at the beginning but you two replied a whole lot of times while I was typing it up. So it wasn't aimed at you specifically, but everyone in general." - Just making sure...

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:42 am

I just wanted to add: *ahem*

I think that you can make a cage layout with both hammocks, igloos etc. (for sleeping) and still add natural things to your cage (to intrigue your rat, and make them think). That's what I try to do with my cage, I try to make it the best possible enviroment for them. (As jonnyboxcutter does, Andy does, and everone else here on Rat Palace).

In the end, we are all just rat lovers, who love our rats, and would do anything for them.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:23 am

Hey JBC....Why are you doing this to me??? LOL!!!
I dont like reading all that much, your post is about 1 chapter of a book!
I love making my rats hammocks!
I can make lots of them for pennies...heheheheeee!
They LOVE them, they stash food and race to them,
jumping in and out all over the place acting all crazy!

Everyone I met so far offers much more inside their cages then just a hammock.
A hammock cannot stand alone! LOL!

On a side note...when the rope you use gets urine soaked...do you throw it away and
then just replace? I thought I read someplace that sisal rope can be dangerous?
Have you seen that anywhere?
Yah...I am too lazy to search for that info again...my bad.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:35 am

Dawn - If you can make them and you rats like them - I love you for it (BTW - how is the tide bottle going?)

Dont get stuck on one toy - hammocks ect. That is not what i am talking about. I am talking about the bigger toy picture.

Since the rope has not been in long enough this is not something i have not had to do. but yes it will get tossed and replaced
Sisal rope - I have seen some post here and other boards RE: toys made of that and no body commented to support the concern you noted - so I assume no.

JBC

FYI the next one wont be this short, there is several point from the thread that needs addressing

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:00 pm

Oh Thanks....just for me! LOL!!!

The Tide container is awesome....very entertaining to watch them play tag, running, stashing all their food in there...
I got the container at our local recycle plant.
There are a million in the plastic bin...LOL!

I am guessing that you might use one of those to make an enclosed type digging box???

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:46 pm

If I have done something wrong or offensive please detail for me what it was so I can either apologize or explain. But for now I am going to reply to as many points as I can

From the maze post:
Q: JBC - "Could starting things off differently have accomplished all of this, possibly?"
A: LW - "Yes, it probably is easier when you ask outright"

Currently I don’t think it would - it obviously has not made any difference at all, let’s just say here for example!?!

After all what I feel is a rational and detailed reply to a “thank you” I made about an off topic comment about “possibly adding fish to a future planed terrarium” started this one off in the direction it is going.

In my reply,
- I clarified my peat question (in case LR missed it),
- I explained my familiarity with it.
- I also acknowledged the fish comment
- Then again attempted to clarify my point one the bigger toy issue even though it was off point for the topic but fit the over all questions and the reason for the dig box.

So, since up to this point all the rest of my points seemed to be lost, I took your advise and dropped the self identified twisted logic, and convoluted analogies and I am still dealing with reading comprehension issues. If that kind of comment is attacking or insulting, so be it. From here it just looks like I was right and I called it in advance.

* edit - This should read "LW," not "LW -" -edit *
LW - Quite frankly I am starting to wonder if you read my stuff and actually agreed with me or just wanted to shut me up? Or if you did understand and are now playing devils advocate. I mean come on I even went as far as to acknowledge “anecdotal evidence” and, said that this was how “my rats” reacted.

LW – "but you never did ask about how my cages are set up and as it happens, many of the things you do or have suggested I've tried variations of past and present - though limits are sometimes in place with poorly or old or weak rats that preclude certain things." – True but, be careful where you go with this one wink

You do realize I did acknowledge this very point in the maze thread don’t you? (its at the end of the “rats are meager and pathetic” post)

From the Maze post "(Keep in mind I don’t know what your cage looks like so this is an assumption) In the situation as you had explained, I would look to the cage. I hate to say it this way but simply put floors and hammocks - don’t force them to learn balance and timing (think running through branches). I don’t build my stuff to be “safe and clean” life is not safe and clean, it’s dirty, messy and dangerous just understand that danger is a relative term"

Since the falling comment was made generally (not including illness or age) I made the assumption that my general reply would be taken the same way. Now if I missed any detail other than the rat was unstable, please point this out and I will clarify.

So, back to the “but you never did ask” part…

- I would like for anybody here that has read these post to explain for me my intentions of the fish – I bet there is a bunch of assumptions but as I have yet to give an actual opinion on the matter – off topic – I would assume that they are going to be at least 50% wrong. (Here I will give you a hint: My kids talked me into buying the rats a $25.00 plastic living room set after I started to develop this idea of letting a rat be a rat.)

The only part of the wild I have ever said I was attempting to replicate was dynamics.

But like in the maze post, cage size was never the issue, as fish are not the issue here – I was asking about soil and if there would be any issues. So since LR specifically asked if I would be concerned if put peat in a cage
LR -“"natural things in" such as peat moss,”
I had to assume they did not “read” my post but just got stuck on the fish reply.

Also since the comment “I have read all your posts, and about how you like having your rats in a "natural environment"

I assumed that LR, had attempted to read the maze post but scanned there as well so I took this time to say that, as well as the following

JBC - “Please take this reply as a direct response to your questions with some explanation and detail of my situation.”

I also said

“Understand I am challenging the over all idea of the current “Toy” concept and am taking your comments - as I feel they would be quite typical for the board and the hobby as a whole – and replying to them, I am not challenging you or upset with you in anyway.”

And then went off on what I thought was a hobby wide issue of the lack of rat toys

This is what I got in reply.

LR – “I think you took my post a little too seriously...I just had a question and you turned it into an insult or something...
Saying that my rats are "lost" is a little hurtful...everyone here loves their ratties, and spoils them, and that includes me. Just because my views aren't exactley aren't like yours doesn't mean I'm wrong, we can all have our own opinions...”

*edit = "was made" -edit*
Since I directed nothing at LR that even remotely pointed to any of the negatives that was they commented towards, it looked to me like exactly what I was talking about - I don’t believe that LR will actually read my post. Sorry I felt that the point "was made" stunningly clear by quoting the very point I was making, with the reply that was made – nothing more needed to be said.

I think I also said “after all, all I have ever advocated was to give your rats the options and see what happens.”

But how many will read this far?

JBC

– Hey Dawn how ya doing wink

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:13 pm

Dawn – you are correct sort of but I gotta give you props” on the start of the idea though.

After the 18” of wasted space idea (Props to LW here) and a few others I decided rather than “raise the roof” if you will I would elevate the floor. It fixes the WS issue and gives them a new place to go.

My idea was this, instead of a cage topper, you guessed it a 6 – 8” tall cage bottomer (if that is even a word).
- Build a frame (same stuff as my topper)
- Take some rope and build the “solid” floor (every rung threading) until about the last ¼ of the tank or so then switch to an every second or third rung threading to the end of the cage. Then inside take several hundred feet of rope - and just go crazy if you will - with it.
- Once it is good (no where near as cluttered as I do the cage but close) I was going to stuff it with paper / shirts / something; this is what I am not sure of. I don’t know yet what would work better, was planning on messing with a bunch of stuff to see what works best.

My thought was / is that since there would be no dirt it is not messy, and since the rope would be supporting any rat build structures and well as the rope floor supporting everything else - cave ins should be a thing of the past.

I was even thinking that for summer I could even convert it to an “In ground” swimming pool wink

but we will se how that goes. I would leave all the rope inside (to prevent accidents) and only fill the tank to about 3-4 inches or less until I see how they respond to it. I don’t wanna bunch a drowned rats

Also I looked at it like this, if they want dirt I can give them dirt and hopefully still not have the issues of collaps.

Can ya follow me and waddaya think?

JBC

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:16 pm

LW - Since you did the maze diagram?? any help here, my system w/visio died (Ima network guy not graphics) so i am out of this one and with the week being the last...

Who knows
JBC

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:33 pm

Re: "reading comprehension issues"
Please consider the following as potential reasons why someone may not understand a post you make:
1) maybe your posting manner isn't clear, isn't concise or your language is difficult to follow?
2) the person you are replying to might be young (we have several 11 year olds on this forum - you cannot necessarily expect them to have the same kind of "reading comprehension" as a adult)?
3) the person you are replying to may not have the best or most complete education?
4) the person may not speak English as a first language?
5) the person may have learning difficulties such as dyslexia or Erlan's Syndrome, making it hard for them to grasp the concepts you are trying to describe from the written word?
6) the person may have an autistic spectrum disorder and find it difficult to determine what you are saying is literal or figurative?
7) perhaps it is better to clarify a question or issue before going off into an accusatory post?

These are just some possible scenarios. Assuming that someone is too lazy to read things through usually shouldn't be first on your list however.

I find it rather ironic that you are generalising that people are incapable of basic reading comprehension when you did not follow a sentence that asked for politeness without resorting to flames or insults "on all sides" and yet took that as being directed at you. Does this differ, in principle, to LittleRattie misunderstanding your posts?

	Quote:
	LW - Quite frankly I am starting to wonder if you read my stuff and actually agreed with me or just wanted to shut me up? Or if you did understand and are now playing devils advocate. I mean come on I even went as far as to acknowledge “anecdotal evidence” and, said that this was how “my rats” reacted.

As I already stated - believe what you will. I really don't bother playing mind games or playing "yes sir, no sir" just to "shut someone up". If you are referring to my question about "Is it an either/or situation with hammocks?" then perhaps you might consider that sometimes you need to make things explicitly clear and simple instead of leaving them implicitly suggested, yet unspoken for all of the reasons listed above - and that rather than jumping to conclusions, you should look at number 7) in that list. This would fall under the "offensive" category - not because of what you are asking but because of the way you asked it. Had you said something along the lines of:

	Quote:
	LittleWillow, I'm a little confused as to where you stand on the princples I'm trying to clarify. Could you explain why you asked the question about XX? I'm not sure if you disagree with me, if you were playing devils advocate or if you were simply trying to clarify something.

perhaps the paragraph would have come across as less like an overly judgemental and harsh accusation.

No, I didn't ask about the fish. Yes, I did consider that you would let them hunt them. No I didn't assume that is what you were doing first and foremost. Yes I did consider that you were ignorant to the risk. Yes I did consider other ways of combining fish and rats, and only one way could I comfortably consider as being ok for both sides - plastic fish. If you were choosing to do otherwise, I honestly don't want to hear it. I made the points that I felt you needed to be aware of and left it at that, believing that if you didn't want people to assume anything, you would clarify your post.

	Quote:
	The irony here is that it is the human side of this discussion that is having the most issues with this apparent radical idea of letting a rat be a rat when they are in the cage.

No, the issue isn't with the principles. It's with your apparent misinterpretation of the fact that someone not understanding your point of view or the way you have posted it doesn't mean they are against the principles themselves.

Re: Falling/sick/old/ill rats and my cage
Despite what you may have believed, it was simply a description of my cage and an explanation that when I had a cage with 5 sick and/or disabled rats who had chronic respiratory problems, were prone to attacks of difficulty breathing, along with panicking and suffered from either pituitary tumour or stroke induced neurological impairments. That led to me having to modify my cage away from the previously more "stimulating" environment. It was not, however, specifically aimed at your posts, your points or anything else - except in a rather flippant and semi serious "watch out for generalisations and assumptions" kind of way that was taken completely the wrong way.

Re: the cage "bottomer" - I do follow what you mean. I'm not entirely sure in my own head how "tight" you'd be expecting the crazy woven rope to be (as in, how big the gaps would be for the rat to squeeze/burrow through).

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:01 pm

JBC - “The injustice of scanning can be when you stop because you read something you don’t like, or don’t want to read and discredit the rest of the post or idea. I hope that is not what you are doing.”

- Nothing about lazy here

LW – “I know you feel strongly about it, but please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please”

Oh yea “ - on all sides.” Can’t forget this part it was the safety

I comment, you answer
“keep it nice on ALL sides.”

And then follow with” but as long as it's clear that is what it is - not an accusation or a judgement, but looking at ways to improve things and discussing them.”

And then hit me with number 7 and tell me I don’t understand your post. Sorry but I see no issues here lets recap

“I know you feel strongly about it” Who could this be? Must have been LR you where talking to right I must have misunderstood. or was it the group? Since I commented and you said no, it must not have been me you where talking to…

“but please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please”

Oh yea “– on all sides”

Naw my reading is fine…

I say one bad thing about a hammock and all hell breaks loose – I tell the group my rats have not been out of the cage in the three months that I have had them - NOTHING not even a why

with all the assumptions you have made so far about me LW why nothing here? Let me guess didn’t fit the topic or was explanation ok, or do you even know what you are reading about right now? I don’t think so.

LW – so far with the exception of one person, this group is an irrational bunch

Thank you LW - You made my point wonderfully

JBC

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:53 pm

Last thing
Judgmental – Knowing my propensity to set things off would it be wise “Mr. Moderator” sir, keeper of the peace, for anybody on the board to ask for my input on such a volatile topic? Do you think maybe just maybe when the most long-winded person in the group answers with a simple – thank you wink

Not one time but two times maybe more mind you but who’s counting right (I know you’re not).

I am very sorry sir but that is making the point crystal clear – I am staying away from this one cuz no matter what I say – it wont be good.

Unless you where making a jud… No, that couldn’t be it could it – LW

Or is that my fancy readin’ getting in the way again?

You know I look at this thread and wonder why it is that I cant seem to find a light but this fire seems to have my name written all over it - odd

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:22 pm

	LittleWillow wrote:
	2) the person you are replying to might be young (we have several 11 year olds on this forum - you cannot necessarily expect them to have the same kind of "reading comprehension" as a adult)?

Which I admit, may be my case. wink

I'm 12 years old, and I am competetive in a sport (rock climbing) in which I will be attending Youth Nationals for next week. So right now I am in the middle of being young, and training hard so that may be an issue, as I do not have time to read over long posts, so I apologize.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:43 pm

Setting off what, JBC?

I asked you questions. Again you reacted with assumptions about arrogance and jugdements and attacks and flames. So far I see none.

To be honest, if you think we are incapable of understanding you, we are judgemental, attacking you or irrational then you are free to choose not to discuss the subject. You can choose not to be reasonable and double check reasons why people may not "get" you. Or you can simply assume that every post is an attack on you (which appears to be the case).

I'm done - I think you actually have some good ideas but sadly, I think you have issues with presenting them in a way that other people find easy to read and understand and without reacting as if everything is a personal attack against you. I've never attacked, flamed or judged you as a person or as rat owner. You have judged me and the entirity of Rat Palace.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:52 pm

I don't think I have reading or comprehension issues, as a general rule, and I'm still having trouble following some of these posts.
Maybe I came in too late.

_________________
Linda and the RMDs

Many have forgotten this truth but you must not forget it. We remain responsible forever, for what we have tamed.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:25 am

Me too. I would like to second what Linda says. I have a master's degree. I worked as a professional writer and editor for three years. Still, JBC, your posts have me scratching my head.

Remember that the purpose of language is communication.

_________________
Arvay and the Squirmin' Vermin

When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me.'

--Erma Bombeck

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:20 am

	Arvay wrote:
	...... Remember that the purpose of language is communication.

That is so so true!

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:57 am

Okay... so I guess it's not just me being confused by JBC's posts?

Okay, I feel a little better now.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:04 am

littlerattie........ Hug

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:09 am

I am having trouble following this whole thread, so I apologize if I misunderstood something, but here is how I feel about the cage set up.

I think that the way you set up your cage depends on your rats.

For example, my Callie, who is a monkey in a rat suit, would love to be in your rats cage. Unfortunately, the other 7 would not be happy in a cage like that, so that is not an option for me.

The 2 weeks I had rats, they had tubes, and rope, and hanging boxes, and rocks, and tons of things. They (2 young girls) slept in their box all day.

Right now in the girls cage I have a kind of balance. There is some rope, and tubes for Callie to play in, along with a wheel which she loves, and then there are also 2 boxes, 3 hammocks, and a ferret ship thingy. The boys have a tunnel, a brick to keep there nails filed, 2 boxes, and 2 hammocks.

I dunno, maybe I raised them wrong or something, but ALL of my rats adore there hammocks, and even the girls spend alot of the time they are in their cage in the hammocks. The rats also get to run for atleast 2 hours every day. They get to climb all over my bed (which is a bunk bed type bed, so is full of things to balance on).

Again, I am not trying to insult you or your rats, but how long did you leave your hammocks in the cage for? My rats only just started using them, but now everyone loves them. Sometimes it takes time for them to adjust.

	Quote:
	I don’t build my stuff to be “safe and clean” life is not safe and clean, it’s dirty, messy and dangerous just understand that danger is a relative term"

While I have no problem with my rats being sometimes dirty, saftey is, and should be, and issue. While in the wild rats with the best instincts that you are talking about will survive and breed, that is not much of an issue with DOMESTIC rats. I know that I would rather have a sweet, cuddley rat, without all of the insticts of its wild cousin, then a wild rat. Since rats have not been bred for the traits you are talking about, one of them could get seriously hurt if they fell one day.

	Quote:
	I tell the group my rats have not been out of the cage in the three months that I have had them - NOTHING not even a why

You have not let your rats out of there cages for 3 months wtf

?!

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:25 pm

wow. I just read through that entire thing. (and my head hurts)

JBC- I understand what you're trying to do for your rats. I had gerbils that weren't handleable so I tried to make thier environment as stimulating as possible with sand, rope, rocks, branches, etc. However, my first concern was saftey. Domestic rats aren't bred to have thier wild cousin's instincts and while some rats may like a more natural environment, all rats do not. Yours apparently do and that's all well and good but it doesn't mean that a rat that lives on hammocks, ropes, and boxes is "lost". You have some great ideas, but if you aren't willing to accept suggestions why post them here? I haven't seen one post that was trying to do anything but suggest ways to make it safer for your rats. Well you know except ones of people defending themselves... Rolling Eyes

LR : good luck in your competition wink

LW: you're a great moderator. Thank you for keeping this from getting too out of hand.

EG: some rats just do not want to have anything to do with humans. I'm assuming that JBC's rats are like this and he is trying to make the place they feel safest in more stimulating

DISCLAIMER: Everything in this post is opinion and does not need to be quoted and/or corrected. Thank you That is all.

_________________
Rats:
The boys:
Chester (PEW hairless), Kye (Black mismarked hooded), Scout (agouti), Reminder (Beige)

Tapioca(Beige hooded) RIP my big squishy boy...Play hard at the Rainbow Bridge.

Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:21 pm

LOL

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:38 pm

Is it ok if I quote this part?

	WolvesRaven wrote:
	LR : good luck in your competition

Thanks you very much.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3